The Force

[Toska]

Don't try to claim otherwise, because to claim otherwise is a crutch so you can go "it's magic I aint gotta explain shit" which is sloppy writing and sloppy story-telling. If it can be explained, explain it. If you can't explain it, which is the case with some things, then do your best. Don't just shrug everything off.

I wasn't going to comment, but this line in particular caught my attention.

Lack of explanation is not a fault in story-telling or writing. Explaining everything, however, is, especially in an established setting where we make several concessions before even picking up a pen. As long as it is plausible—either in-galaxy, or in our world—we do not need to explain the process behind it in depth. That weighs down one's writing with cumbersome prose and is entirely unnecessary. Fiction requires a suspense of belief in order to function. Rationalizing every detail is pedantic and counter-productive.

 

[Sleven]

*snip*

I've already went over this but if you'd like to discuss it further please feel free to do so in a different thread (instead of cluttering this one) that I will respond to (feel free to PM me a link to said thread).

Now back to your point about the relevant stuff: there's no admin consensus on these powers or whether or not they are banned, otherwise there'd be a list. Technically nothing is banned until it is stated. This hodge podge mix and match stuff really shouldn't fly. Admins need to discuss this logically, thinking about the repercussions of what they say/implement. And it's not hard to have all Force powers. There are many limitations and restrictions on them as is and most of them are easier to regulate than the "all powerful" telekinesis. If you read my first post, all I did for each Force power brought up so far is do the closest thing to copying/summarizing Wookiee for each of them. Through that, I was able to deduce that quite a few of these powers weren't even able to be used in combat (which should entirely eliminate the point of even banning them in the first place). It's simple, if someone says they can Phase through a vibroblade or a blaster bolt or create a singularity with Fold Space you just say no: because that's already what Wookiee says.

Furthermore, plenty of people come together here and roleplay their own stories where they use powers people have considered to be "banned" without permission *gasp*. Why attempt to stop a community from doing the thing it wants to do: tell a collaborative story? Let people be as collaborative as they want with who they want. People are never forced to RP with anyone under any circumstances ever. That opens things up for people to discuss what will be allowed/not allowed on a thread to thread basis. Personally, I don't care if everyone has their own story going on. It lets them tell their story the way they want to without interference. It also shows maturity and the ability to accept higher forms of role play.

*Snip*

*Snip*

This thread is for Force powers and banned and words used in description by the OP (why do I have to keep mentioning it). Let's all bring this to a new thread where I'd be more than happy to discuss it.

EDIT: Created the thread for us to discuss the off-topic stuff here: Link

 

[The Kyzer]

You can argue this all you want, but fact remains that SW still adhere's to physics for the most part. Some things ignore physics, but the SW universe as a whole does not.

That's not true. It's only half at best. Yes, physics work, but a lot of them simply don't. Blasters, Ion Weapons, Shields, REPULSORS (that's a big one), Gravity Well Projectors, Tractor Beams, Starfighter movement, Ion engines, Lightsabers operating without melting their wielders or opponents instantly, The Force (of course), hyperspace, hyperdrives, hypermatter, several planets, sensors, the Maw installation...there's tons that don't.

These things operate on SW-canon science, not real science. They explain the crap out of it, but many things simply don't work. That's the "magic" of SW.

That said, wormholes are theoretically possible, but would create such terrifying amounts of destructive power, you'd probably just destroy whatever tried to go through it, and anything around it.

Oh and fire can exist is space as it is used in SW, but it'd be very short. Like BANG-gone, except faster. Maybe BA-gone.

Space isn't actually a pure vacuum, for those wondering. In a pure vacuum, yes you're right, sound couldn't exist, but space isn't. However, it's pressure is EXTREMELY low, but it does exist. If it didn't, stars wouldn't operate as they do (i.e. Solar Winds). That said, since SW has utilized full space travel over thousands of millenia, it is theoretically possible for their galaxy to contain even more free atoms that could contribute to pressure, but that's stretching it a bit, even for me.

 

[Colt556]

I wasn't going to comment, but this line in particular caught my attention.

Lack of explanation is not a fault in story-telling or writing. Explaining everything, however, is, especially in an established setting where we make several concessions before even picking up a pen. As long as it is plausible—either in-galaxy, or in our world—we do not need to explain the process behind it in depth. That weighs down one's writing with cumbersome prose and is entirely unnecessary. Fiction requires a suspense of belief in order to function. Rationalizing every detail is pedantic and counter-productive.

Just to be clear, I don't expect everyone to drop into exposition every time they do something. Just that what they do should be able to be explained. If you teleport, you need not explain how you teleported during the rp, but you should be able to explain it should someone ask. If you can't even come up with something that sounds plausible within the universe, then you shouldn't be able to do it. That's what I meant.

I've already went over this but if you'd like to discuss it further please feel free to do so in a different thread (instead of cluttering this one) that I will respond to (feel free to PM me a link to said thread).

Now back to your point about the relevant stuff: there's no admin consensus on these powers or whether or not they are banned, otherwise there'd be a list. Technically nothing is banned until it is stated. This hodge podge mix and match stuff really shouldn't fly. Admins need to discuss this logically, thinking about the repercussions of what they say/implement. And it's not hard to have all Force powers. There are many limitations and restrictions on them as is and most of them are easier to regulate than the "all powerful" telekinesis. If you read my first post, all I did for each Force power brought up so far is do the closest thing to copying/summarizing Wookiee for each of them. Through that, I was able to deduce that quite a few of these powers weren't even able to be used in combat (which should entirely eliminate the point of even banning them in the first place). It's simple, if someone says they can Phase through a vibroblade or a blaster bolt or create a singularity with Fold Space you just say no: because that's already what Wookiee says.

Furthermore, plenty of people come together here and roleplay their own stories where they use powers people have considered to be "banned" without permission *gasp*. Why attempt to stop a community from doing the thing it wants to do: tell a collaborative story? Let people be as collaborative as they want with who they want. People are never forced to RP with anyone under any circumstances ever. That opens things up for people to discuss what will be allowed/not allowed on a thread to thread basis. Personally, I don't care if everyone has their own story going on. It lets them tell their story the way they want to without interference. It also shows maturity and the ability to accept higher forms of role play.




This thread is for Force powers and banned and words used in description by the OP (why do I have to keep mentioning it). Let's all bring this to a new thread where I'd be more than happy to discuss it.

EDIT: Created the thread for us to discuss the off-topic stuff here: Link

On topic, as far as I'm concerned nothing should be banned, just moderated. I also strongly agree with you that unless explicitly stated in a thread, it shouldn't count. Every community has it's rules, and then it's ACTUAL rules, I doubt this one is any different. But that sort of thing has always annoyed me. If you want to ban something, then ban it, post it in a thread, have it written down. Unless it's written down somewhere for all to see, it shouldn't count. That's how laws work in real life, why should it be any different here? If you leave it vague it leaves it up to individual admin's views, and that's really not fair. If someone does something in rp that catches your attention and you discuss it, deem it bad, then go and make a rule for it so it doesn't happen in the future. I just hate 'hidden rules' that exist in heresay form only. So if some of these powers are banned, but aren't listed in a topic somewhere, they need to be listed.

That's not true. It's only half at best. Yes, physics work, but a lot of them simply don't. Blasters, Ion Weapons, Shields, REPULSORS (that's a big one), Gravity Well Projectors, Tractor Beams, Starfighter movement, Ion engines, Lightsabers operating without melting their wielders or opponents instantly, The Force (of course), hyperspace, hyperdrives, hypermatter, several planets, sensors, the Maw installation...there's tons that don't.

These things operate on SW-canon science, not real science. They explain the crap out of it, but many things simply don't work. That's the "magic" of SW.

That said, wormholes are theoretically possible, but would create such terrifying amounts of destructive power, you'd probably just destroy whatever tried to go through it, and anything around it.

Oh and fire can exist is space as it is used in SW, but it'd be very short. Like BANG-gone, except faster. Maybe BA-gone.

Space isn't actually a pure vacuum, for those wondering. In a pure vacuum, yes you're right, sound couldn't exist, but space isn't. However, it's pressure is EXTREMELY low, but it does exist. If it didn't, stars wouldn't operate as they do (i.e. Solar Winds). That said, since SW has utilized full space travel over thousands of millenia, it is theoretically possible for their galaxy to contain even more free atoms that could contribute to pressure, but that's stretching it a bit, even for me.

The problem with listing examples of why physics often don't work is when you list things that DO work. I mean real quick let's go through the list you opened up with.

Blasters are theoretically possible using real life physics.
Ion weapons, same deal.
Shields, same deal.
Repulsors, same deal.
Gravity well projectors, same deal.
Hypermatter, you got me on this one, this one is pure fiction.
Which planets?
Sensors are possible.
Maw installation is, technically possible but never as a natural occurrence. Then again, it's not natural in SW either.

So almost everything you listed can be explained using real life physics. They have their own SW flare, utilizing SW tech, but you can attain the same results using real life theories. That's the thing, it's something I've learned by focusing heavily on making tech in various RP communities. Much of SW can be explained with real science. Much of it can't, that's true, but most of it can be.

 

[The Kyzer]

Wow this thread did get REALLY off-topic now that I read it further.

And the bans on those powers exist, but the thread in which they are detailed was taken down sometime ago to be worked on.

Not sure what's going on with that. Nowadays, everyone that's been here a while pretty much just knows the banned powers, and if you stumble upon one, they'll point it out to you. The Rules say to just check the Wookieepedia list and use common sense, and if you have a question ask an Admin (I suggest Adena). That's the best you're going to get with that.

 

[Kiro]

There's no admin consensus on these powers or whether or not they are banned, otherwise there'd be a list.

Yes, there is. Adena stated, right here in this thread, that they are banned.

Technically nothing is banned until it is stated.

It's been stated. See above.

This hodge podge mix and match stuff really shouldn't fly. Admins need to discuss this logically, thinking about the repercussions of what they say/implement.

They have. They've been running this site for over eight years. You really think they haven't discussed Force Powers?

And it's not hard to have all Force powers.

Then why bother RPing a Jedi Padawan at all? If it's not hard to have all Force Powers, why can't everyone run around being Luke Skywalker, 2.0?

There are many limitations and restrictions on them as is and most of them are easier to regulate than the "all powerful" telekinesis.

But not enough. And as Adena stated earlier in this thread (I'm starting to think you're ignoring her on purpose, as this isn't the first time you two have had discussions of this sort), they are vague. And vagueness allows for abuse. And on an online forum, you cannot rely on people "using their brains" or "common" sense. People will abuse a system which allows for it. And these powers are the ultimate in abuse-ability. Yes, Telekinesis can be abused. But you need to be at least somewhat clever to do it. With these, you don't. See the issue?

Furthermore, plenty of people come together here and roleplay their own stories where they use powers people have considered to be "banned" without permission *gasp*. Why attempt to stop a community from doing the thing it wants to do: tell a collaborative story? Let people be as collaborative as they want with who they want. People are never forced to RP with anyone under any circumstances ever. That opens things up for people to discuss what will be allowed/not allowed on a thread to thread basis. Personally, I don't care if everyone has their own story going on. It lets them tell their story the way they want to without interference. It also shows maturity and the ability to accept higher forms of role play.

That's what 99% of us do. Without complaining about not being allowed to learn a couple of Force Powers that are extremely open to abuse. We're quite happy to learn the "normal" powers, and have fun RPing our characters learning, and using, those powers. If we RP characters that are Force Sensetive at all. So get off your high horse.

This thread is for Force powers and banned and words used in description by the OP (why do I have to keep mentioning it). Let's all bring this to a new thread where I'd be more than happy to discuss it.

That's what we are. But we're also arguing your call for these powers. And to show you why they wouldn't work, logically. Creating a new thread to argue the virtues of wether Star Wars is fiction or not, can't change that. And it's a poor attempt at misdirection, in my personal opinion, and plain childish. You're shown why a power wouldn't, and shouldn't, work due to the laws of physics. So you argue that because Star Wars isn't reality, it should work, because "hey, it's magic". Well, again, as Adena pointed out earlier, that's not how SWPR operates.

EDIT: Created the thread for us to discuss the off-topic stuff here: Link

See the above statement.

Thank you, and good night.

 

[Sleven]

I appreciate the tenacity and energy behind this subject, but we can copy past a lot of these points into the thread I made about it (link in earlier post).

Also, while most of what you said holds true in the common worldview of how communities should operate (and does have a great deal of merit), I can't fully agree with you. I've always believed rules should be transcended, it's just who I am. IE: if everyone follows their own rules while simultaneously giving everyone who follows their own rules the space to follow their own rules, inevitably people will come together who want to and make concessions, but these can be as temporary or permanent as each participating member wants.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Kiro, but maybe my post covers all your points, lets see...

 

[Kiro]

I've always believed rules should be transcended, it's just who I am.

Transelated: The rules don't apply to me, cuz I'm special.

I'm sorry if that seems horribly rude, Sleven, but that is -exactly- what you wrote. I just changed the wording to make it seem less sanctemonious.

EDIT: Can an Admin come lock this thread before it becomes a flame-war?

 

[Colt556]

Rules are required because people are flawed and incapable of working together properly. Ideally we'd all make compromises and keep things working. That never happens on the grand scale. That said, rules should be flexible. If you just go "these are the rules, deal with it" you stagnate. Imagine any country in the world if they never changed their laws. Rules are created because people feel there's a need for them. However time moves on and that need may no longer exist. Or it may outright harm society (or in this case, the community) as a whole. Rules need to be enforced, but also given the ability to be ignored or removed entirely.

 

[Sleven]

Yes, there is. Adena stated, right here in this thread, that they are banned.

Adena isn't :Bac or every Admin.

It's been stated. See above.

Don't see it in the Forum Rules section where there actually are limitations set out regarding all Force Powers. Nor does it fall under any of the clauses

They have. They've been running this site for over eight years. You really think they haven't discussed Force Powers?

Explained above

Then why bother RPing a Jedi Padawan at all? If it's not hard to have all Force Powers, why can't everyone run around being Luke Skywalker, 2.0?

My point just completely went over your head. I'm talking about having all Force powers for the forum, not for a single PC.

But not enough. And as Adena stated earlier in this thread (I'm starting to think you're ignoring her on purpose, as this isn't the first time you two have had discussions of this sort), they are vague. And vagueness allows for abuse. And on an online forum, you cannot rely on people "using their brains" or "common" sense. People will abuse a system which allows for it. And these powers are the ultimate in abuse-ability. Yes, Telekinesis can be abused. But you need to be at least somewhat clever to do it. With these, you don't. See the issue?

Try and not make your arguments so personal, it only detracts from any credibility your points may have.

And also, no I don't. It's easy to tell someone "no" and it's easy to tell someone "yes". Threads and posts can be retcon'd and edited to the N'th degree.

That's what 99% of us do. Without complaining about not being allowed to learn a couple of Force Powers that are extremely open to abuse. We're quite happy to learn the "normal" powers, and have fun RPing our characters learning, and using, those powers. If we RP characters that are Force Sensetive at all. So get off your high horse.

No high horse here. I just prefer to role play one way, what you're describing is another. Perhaps it's a good thing I haven't RP'd with you then (and don't need to).

That's what we are. But we're also arguing your call for these powers. And to show you why they wouldn't work, logically. Creating a new thread to argue the virtues of wether Star Wars is fiction or not, can't change that. And it's a poor attempt at misdirection, in my personal opinion, and plain childish. You're shown why a power wouldn't, and shouldn't, work due to the laws of physics. So you argue that because Star Wars isn't reality, it should work, because "hey, it's magic". Well, again, as Adena pointed out earlier, that's not how SWPR operates.

Again irrelevant to this thread coupled with pointless attacks. Your other discussions above were fairly relevant. There is no reason this thread can't be about what it was intended to be about.

 

[Sleven]

Transelated: The rules don't apply to me, cuz I'm special.

I'm sorry if that seems horribly rude, Sleven, but that is -exactly- what you wrote. I just changed the wording to make it seem less sanctemonious.

EDIT: Can an Admin come lock this thread before it becomes a flame-war?

So you're trying to say I'm saying something that I'm not saying?

Great plan. Excellent work.

 

[Toska]

EDIT: Can an Admin come lock this thread before it becomes a flame-war?

Hold up, I would still like for Adena to address the question I posed a few pages back. I'd rather not call it a lost cause just yet.

 

[The Kyzer]

So, I answered your stuff, Colt, here.

 

[Genkaku]

From what I gathered we got two sides in this discussion.

One wants to know more about powers and if/why they are banned and getting some more information as to the reasons.

The other is arguing that in some mediums or situations nothing should be banned and should be fair game.


The first is fine and dandy, the second really would be served by saying "Make your own RP land then with those rules."

As the admins decided to ban some powers means they wanted to and those are the rules here, the reasoning is to facilitiate a wide range of RP and as such they have to take into account pvp, story telling, and shifting between the two during story and the like, so thus, it makes sense to regulate.

A blanket of "ALL SHOULD NOT BE BANNED" is silly to argue, certain powers is a decent discussion, but the admins did come to some consensus it seems since well...they seemed to agree enough to not argue about most/all of them?



As for powers I don't think Toska got all answers

AFAIK I don't think Doppelgänger is banned? Since it is illusion and pretty easy to beat since any sensor is gonna show it isn't there and all that.
Mechu-deru I wouldn't think it is either, albeit rare it doesn't give some incredible power to decimate people inof itself, more being a super awesome mechanic I'd think! =p
Dreamscape wow sounds like a Naruto sharingan thing? =p but eh, I dunno might be on the fence there, while illusion and semi easily breakable may be hard to RP fairly and I'd think would cause undue amounts of admin rulings from one side "You broke out of it immediately! You couldn't know it was an illusion" "No I didn't!" "Yes you did!" etc etc. Feels like a metagame argument waiting to happen.
Phase seems pretty powerful, I'd probably err on the side of poss banned? Seems amazingly amazing and I'd expect ALOT of force users to be packing it given how uber powerful some people make themselves.

 

[Sleven]

Well as the Wookiee article about Phase got dumbed down and less descriptive so I'll lay it out with the references it does give us. That being said it does limit it's use in its descriptors specifically to walls and doors. But let's get into what we really want to know: is it OP?

Well if it was it would probably be usable in combat, but it isn't:

One such example is An'ya Kuro a Jedi Master capable of using both Phase and Teleport/Fold Space, yet she couldn't use either power while fighting Vader and still got crushed by a tree and cut by a lightsaber.

The only example we see where someone uses it in a combat situation is Bazel Warv but he's also under the influence of the Force psychosis and has Kilik-esq powers that supposedly they learned from the closest thing Star Wars has to gods: the Celestials. Furthermore he isn't actually able to phase through damage, just inanimate objects. His case is still unique and should not be taken as seriously as an indication of what the power can do.

Based on this it's easy to deduce that Phase required a high level of concentration to use and often wasn't worth the risk if you were under a lot of pressure (ie combat). Essentially the way Phase has been outlined through established canon examples is that it's even risky to use it normally through things like walls, because it still has a good chance of failing if any little bit of concentration goes awry. You mess up, you lose your body and die. Basically it's entirely built to be a roleplaying device and not a combat tool.

Additionally, if someone had perfected the technique to run/move through walls during combat, all someone would have to do is destroy even part of that wall where the person was phasing, and bam, they're dead.

 

[Genkaku]

Not even combat though, it could certainly be abused by people wanting to go "I CAN GET INTO ANYWHERE!" and the like. I could see it going both ways. On the one side combative it isn't crazy powerful, but on the RP side it could certainly make for troublesome stuff in that someone could easily make say, a sith assassin with that power, and then just go phasing into rooms or behind people and being all "HA HA I GOT YOU" while creative it is sorta like ysalamiri, suddenly everyone has forcefields and force cages EVERYWHERE to prevent ninja phasers after a few people who ARE pvp focused abuse such a thing.

 

[Green Ranger]

Funny thing, I'm actually working on a list of banned Force Powers.

I'm not going to waste energy on the 'nothing should be banned' argument - it's a nice idea on paper, but it flat doesn't work. No if or buts about it.

I will say phase walk can be abused wildly - especially in freeform - and will most likely be banned. Its all well and good for us to say it takes a lot of concentration and is exhausting to use, but there's no way of measuring that...and to define what phase walk is and isnt applicable to would require a ton of time spent not only researching the power, but also writing out essentially what would be a site definition of how it and all other force powers can be used. To put it simply, the gain isn't worth the effort required to approve something that, even defined, just screams of potential for misuse and abuse.

 

[Colt556]

Funny thing, I'm actually working on a list of banned Force Powers.

I'm not going to waste energy on the 'nothing should be banned' argument - it's a nice idea on paper, but it flat doesn't work. No if or buts about it.

I will say phase walk can be abused wildly - especially in freeform - and will most likely be banned. Its all well and good for us to say it takes a lot of concentration and is exhausting to use, but there's no way of measuring that...and to define what phase walk is and isnt applicable to would require a ton of time spent not only researching the power, but also writing out essentially what would be a site definition of how it and all other force powers can be used. To put it simply, the gain isn't worth the effort required to approve something that, even defined, just screams of potential for misuse and abuse.

Well, you could get volunteers to write up descriptions for what's possible and what isn't, and then the admins need only review them. Because as has already been mentioned. -ALL- force powers are exceptionally overpowered and open to misuse and abuse. Every single one. It just takes a little creativity and intelligence and you can turn even the most mundane power into something horribly broken. I can testify to this personally, much to the dismay of the admins on my former community. These powers are really no more powerful or easily abused than say.. force push. It's just the application is more straight forward and thus everyone knows it, whereas with the more mundane powers most people don't see how truly overpowered they are.

So, personally, if you could impose limits on them I think that would be best. And while the admins may not have the time to write up definitions, the members sure do.

 

[Green Ranger]

Well, you could get volunteers to write up descriptions for what's possible and what isn't, and then the admins need only review them. Because as has already been mentioned. -ALL- force powers are exceptionally overpowered and open to misuse and abuse. Every single one. It just takes a little creativity and intelligence and you can turn even the most mundane power into something horribly broken. I can testify to this personally, much to the dismay of the admins on my former community. These powers are really no more powerful or easily abused than say.. force push. It's just the application is more straight forward and thus everyone knows it, whereas with the more mundane powers most people don't see how truly overpowered they are.

So, personally, if you could impose limits on them I think that would be best. And while the admins may not have the time to write up definitions, the members sure do.

I
The problem is, the moment we start to define the capabilities of powers is the moment we have to do a full write up of all powers. Part of the pull of SWRP is that we dont have exhaustive rewrites of canon or writeups of every tiny detail that must be read before posting. Its a massive turnoff to new members, and its unlikely for us to head down that road just to cater to an outspoken minority of members.

 

[Colt556]

I
The problem is, the moment we start to define the capabilities of powers is the moment we have to do a full write up of all powers. Part of the pull of SWRP is that we dont have exhaustive rewrites of canon or writeups of every tiny detail that must be read before posting. Its a massive turnoff to new members, and its unlikely for us to head down that road just to cater to an outspoken minority of members.

Yes but look at it this way. You also don't feel the need to ban every power. So you can just do writeups for powers you feel need to be banned. There's really no reason to do writeups on every power just because you do them for some powers, after all. If people haven't figured out how to abuse the hell out of the mundane powers by now, they probably wont ever. So just focus on writing about the more obviously powerful powers. That way we can still use them, even if in a more restricted fashion. Having a restricted power is better than no power at all.