Main Battles Moving Forward

Outlander · Dec 13, 2015

StormWolf said:
Points and perks can be supplemented with tangible tactical assets for the sake of narrative. Hangar could provide rapid deployment of fighters, for example.

I still think that giving them terms and rules kind of takes away from everything. I think the FLs should just work out what benefits and drawbacks each side has based on the actions of the players in the battles.

Brandon Rhea · Dec 13, 2015

One thing that people should keep in mind is this.

There are a lot of ideas being thrown around here that could theoretically work. But here's the thing. They add complication into a system that we've already seen success with. Can you have success even if more complication is added? Sure, but here's our goal: utilizing the simplest system that works.

We've found that, so we're going to stick with that until we see the need to adapt to new circumstances.

Jake · Dec 13, 2015

The next timeline is in every way already about adapting to new circumstances, though. However, I think the area where changes are needed is in the larger scope of the conflict driving the timeline rather than the individual battles. Any modifications to battles themselves should be to complement changes made to the dynamic of the war as a whole.

Green Ranger · Dec 13, 2015

I don't mind the idea of battles determining the fate for groups of worlds as opposed to individual planets. It depends on the territories that we decide on as well - for example, you could have battles determine the ownership of all planets within a grid-square on the galactic map, but are the territories of the factions (remember, the conflicting main factions will be the BA and the Sith, who are essentially out fighting over the Outer Rim, so it's a fairly small region we're talking about here, at least initially) going to be large enough to warrant giving territories of that size away so readily?

Brandon Rhea · Dec 13, 2015

Jake said:
The next timeline is in every way already about adapting to new circumstances, though.

And we have. This new battle system is a reflection of that. This system has been tested and it's successful, so that's what we're going with until new circumstances in the next timeline suggest that tweaks are necessary.

Green Ranger said:
I don't mind the idea of battles determining the fate for groups of worlds as opposed to individual planets. It depends on the territories that we decide on as well - for example, you could have battles determine the ownership of all planets within a grid-square on the galactic map, but are the territories of the factions (remember, the conflicting main factions will be the BA and the Sith, who are essentially out fighting over the Outer Rim, so it's a fairly small region we're talking about here, at least initially) going to be large enough to warrant giving territories of that size away so readily?

Yeah, agreed. That's something we've talked about before but haven't really done anything with. It'll depend on the context, though, as Boli said.

Mog · Dec 14, 2015

WOW! Super excited about the new timeline after reading this. ^.^ Thanks for all of your hard work admins and whoever is in the think tank.

Insoulent · Dec 14, 2015

The Outer Rim is the largest part of the Map and was like the Wild West, too vast to police - that's why the Hutts had good business out there, and why even the Empire didn't have a full grasp on it (or at least in the old EU). So ideally, the Border Alliance has to expand, and so will the Sith.

I wrote the system specifically for another plot setting, which I thought we'd discuss in the think tank (which by the way: where is that think tank announcement anyway?), but it could still apply here. As for the complications - that's the joy in life, and writing - is that it's not easy, and it's fun to try and overcome the difficulties. How else can we grow, by being repetitive, over and over again? We're all adults here, free-thinking ones at that, and I doubt anyone would quit because of the Main battle system (which really only pop up every three months or so?) has some slight complications? If anything it'll keep them pre-occupied and actually give them something to build on instead of waiting for the FL (which I've been by the way), to give them something to do.

Ideally in the idea I put forward, the factions would already need a reason to fight over the territory, etc. But I recognize in this storyline that sort of thing has to be built up to, which is okay for some? But we tried that in this timeline and we all know how long it took for things to pick up.

Sin · Dec 15, 2015

Saying things like "it works" and it's "successful" is all relative.

And from what I can tell you're basing this off of the fact that you started a "PvP" thread and it was completed in a timely manner.

Was it enjoyable? Was it meaningful? I can't say as I haven't participated in the new 1v1 system yet because just from reading the ones from the Manaan stuff, it didn't seem like something that I would enjoy and I definitely didn't see how the outcome would be meaningful for my character one way or another. It's basically the equivalent of fighting some random on the battlefield aka "another one bites the dust".

I don't think you can truly say it was a success either because a lot of the characters in the stories were characters that from what I could tell from reading the sign-ups were for the most part characters that the creator didn't really care a lot about. Sure, some of the characters had some time invested into them, but none of those characters lost either. Because it seemed like they were fighting characters that weren't very developed on the other side so the writer was more willing to let them go.

The problem you're going to have in the new timeline is that more and more people are going to be reluctant to sign up because they don't want one of their three characters that they've invested a lot in to die in some weird 1v1 duel that they "signed up" for. Idk... I find it hard to believe that you guys don't see the problem with it from a writer's point of view. I'm not saying the 1v1 system or "Manaan Rules" can't work, but I will say this: it's going to need a lot of polish and a lot more depth to it. A lot more set up. The FL's can't just be like: HEY! Let's have our factions do some PvP fights so we can decide who's going to control random planet A. There needs to be more build up than that. I would encourage the basis of "it working" and "it being successful" upon whether or not it had a meaningful impact on the main storyline or at least the stories of the characters that were involved in the fight.

Hope that makes sense.

Outlander · Dec 15, 2015

Sin said:
Saying things like "it works" and it's "successful" is all relative.

And from what I can tell you're basing this off of the fact that you started a "PvP" thread and it was completed in a timely manner.

Was it enjoyable? Was it meaningful? I can't say as I haven't participated in the new 1v1 system yet because just from reading the ones from the Manaan stuff, it didn't seem like something that I would enjoy and I definitely didn't see how the outcome would be meaningful for my character one way or another. It's basically the equivalent of fighting some random on the battlefield aka "another one bites the dust".

I don't think you can truly say it was a success either because a lot of the characters in the stories were characters that from what I could tell from reading the sign-ups were for the most part characters that the creator didn't really care a lot about. Sure, some of the characters had some time invested into them, but none of those characters lost either. Because it seemed like they were fighting characters that weren't very developed on the other side so the writer was more willing to let them go.

The problem you're going to have in the new timeline is that more and more people are going to be reluctant to sign up because they don't want one of their three characters that they've invested a lot in to die in some weird 1v1 duel that they "signed up" for. Idk... I find it hard to believe that you guys don't see the problem with it from a writer's point of view. I'm not saying the 1v1 system or "Manaan Rules" can't work, but I will say this: it's going to need a lot of polish and a lot more depth to it. A lot more set up. The FL's can't just be like: HEY! Let's have our factions do some PvP fights so we can decide who's going to control random planet A. There needs to be more build up than that. I would encourage the basis of "it working" and "it being successful" upon whether or not it had a meaningful impact on the main storyline or at least the stories of the characters that were involved in the fight.

Hope that makes sense.

Can you really critique something well enough to say it doesn't work if you've never actually tried it?

Mog · Dec 15, 2015

Sin said:
The problem you're going to have in the new timeline is that more and more people are going to be reluctant to sign up because they don't want one of their three characters that they've invested a lot in to die in some weird 1v1 duel that they "signed up" for. Idk... .

I wont be one of them.

I've lost a character I put almost all of my time into. I got REALLY attached to her (too attached) and it hurt to lose her. But it also gave me a chance to create a fresh character and focus on the other characters I'd be neglecting. It almost felt... refreshing? Freeing? It also gave my character an ending -- and every story has an ending.

Experiencing the loss was good for me, I think. It helped me get over the fear. It's not as big of a deal to me anymore. Once the new timeline starts I think most people will get use to the risk/character loss.

Mr.BossMan · Dec 15, 2015

Random Comment: "Well as long as we think positive."

Jake · Dec 15, 2015

There's a relationship between this kind of behavior (accepting character death) and the enjoyment of the timeline as a whole. Obviously, everyone enjoys their own character arc: many like to plot it out so that it unravels as a carefully crafted story from start to finish. The nature of this site means that at the same time you participate in other character arcs, help to build the stories of others, and that's pretty much where the enjoyment of a group activity like roleplaying comes from. However, on this site those stories are all part of a wider tapestry of events that makes up the timeline. One of the most salient moments in any story is the death of a character, which adds meaning to the conflict that drives the story.

There's usually some disappointment involved for the person whose character is dying, because the story they've so lovingly put together and the character they've invested time and creativity into is no longer present, but it also adds a great deal to the wider story that is being told. It adds a much needed spice to a timeline that will otherwise become bland with social threads and lukewarm missions if there's no real threat, at least in my opinion, and you lose the thrill in anything once you start to realize that your favorite characters are protected by plot armor or you can't die in a game because you have god mode enabled, or what have you...

Personally this is why I think that the 'competitive edge' is a necessary element of the timeline that's very important to promote and encourage, not necessarily as a source of character death, but as a source of meaningful conflict that adds to the story of the timeline as a whole.

Tangential thought: the idea of Moraband being a tomb world where people can continue RPing with dead characters is a very interesting new feature that has a lot of potential to be played with. It would be very interesting if there became a whole other aspect of roleplaying involving the Sith if they can continue vying for power between each other even after they're dead...

Sin · Dec 15, 2015

Never said it doesn't work and I think I was pretty clear with regards to where I'm coming from.

My point is that the risk of character death should be ever present even outside of these "PvP" threads. To that end, signing up for a fight as it has currently been implemented hasn't had much depth or build up imo. It just kind of happens and gets thrown under the "war between faction a and b" blanket.

I hope it's more interesting than that in the new timeline. If not, what's to stop anyone from doing this and requesting their site prowess be recognized? Do you only advance by engaging in staff/faction sanctioned "Manaan rules" encounters? What if a character has won a crap load of these fights that weren't sanctioned as a main story plot? Are they less significant than someone that one five main story fights?

Outlander · Dec 15, 2015

Sin said:
Never said it doesn't work and I think I was pretty clear with regards to where I'm coming from.

My point is that the risk of character death should be ever present even outside of these "PvP" threads. To that end, signing up for a fight as it has currently been implemented hasn't had much depth or build up imo. It just kind of happens and gets thrown under the "war between faction a and b" blanket.

I hope it's more interesting than that in the new timeline. If not, what's to stop anyone from doing this and requesting their site prowess be recognized? Do you only advance by engaging in staff/faction sanctioned "Manaan rules" encounters? What if a character has won a crap load of these fights that weren't sanctioned as a main story plot? Are they less significant than someone that one five main story fights?

Again, how would you actually know or back up any of what you're saying. From what I've seen, you've role played very infrequent with your character as well as never having role played under the rules you're talking about. So you don't seem qualified to make any opinions positively or negatively to that effect, especially having not been present for the previous battle system which lead to this new one.

Marf · Dec 16, 2015

@Mog @Sin

You're ignoring the fact that how different people deal with character loss or risk is entirely personal and dependent on the individual. I live with severe anxiety disorder, which causes habitual paranoia and makes dealing with big changes or risky situations absolutely miserable. Let alone situations that decide the fate of a character who has taken me just shy of a year to develop, a character who I pour my heart and soul into every day and share a deep emotional bond with, a character who if I was suddenly unable to write as them, I would simply be ill.

I'm perfectly fine with risks such as capture or maiming, as they add to the story and allow me something to write. It's just the idea of not being able to play my character any more that makes me very distressed.

I do not roleplay to take risks or get thrills, I roleplay for therapeutic means, to relax and to express myself artistically. Having to suddenly write my character out of a life or death situation completely ruins that. I hate writing action sequences or strategy. Death-enabled and death-disabled threads each have their appropriate needs, and it's a matter of understanding time and place. I fully appreciate why major conflict threads are risk-enabled, but for people like me who just want to write personal arcs which are entirely unrelated to the wider timeline, the death-disabled option should be available if we wish to use it. I'm not saying it should be abused or used too much, but it should simply be available.

Jake · Dec 16, 2015

It is available, but it is also being abused. Your situation is unique, and I think could probably be resolved as simply as adding a disclaimer in your signature that you roleplay exclusively in death-disabled threads.

Marf · Dec 16, 2015

@Jake That's really not something I'd like to do. The funny thing is, mostly all the people I RP with don't like character death either, so we tend to just set some limits before we start the thread. Capture and maiming enabled, with death as a very last resort, usually. I appreciate the flavour risk can add to a story, but too much can ruin it, for me at least.

Sin · Dec 16, 2015

I'm a roleplayer/writer, I have two eyes, and a brain. What more does someone need to "qualify" to give their opinion?

Take an NFL game announcer. Do they have to be on the field playing the game to comment? No. They used to play football, they watch the game with their eyes, and they use their noggin' to analyze what they are seeing from their point of view.

Jake · Dec 16, 2015

Marf said:
@Jake That's really not something I'd like to do. The funny thing is, mostly all the people I RP with don't like character death either, so we tend to just set some limits before we start the thread. Capture and maiming enabled, with death as a very last resort, usually. I appreciate the flavour risk can add to a story, but too much can ruin it, for me at least.

I guess I don't really understand the issue then. Mog and Sin didn't suggest anything about all threads being death enabled, just that it could become an issue for battles if no one is willing to join because no one wants their character to die. All you have to do is avoid those battles if you want to avoid the chance of your character being killed. Your situation is particular because of the emotional repercussions that kind of thing can have for you, however, that shouldn't be a problem for most people, so hopefully they won't be unwilling to participate because of the possibility that their characters will die.

Marf · Dec 16, 2015

Jake said:
I guess I don't really understand the issue then. Mog and Sin didn't suggest anything about all threads being death enabled, just that it could become an issue for battles if no one is willing to join because no one wants their character to die.

I was referring to Mog's comment about how he dealt with his character dying, and I gave an example of how it can be different for everyone. I was referring also to what Sin said about the risk of character death being ever present outside of main battles.

If what I said before didn't make much sense, I apologize. I got a tad panicky out of nowhere and wrote it pretty quickly ^^;

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