Faction Training and Ranks

[Green Ranger]

The Force is tricky. Balancing it, even more so. Even in D&D, which is the go-to system for roleplaying, magic users are always more powerful, and that's in a system with numbers and dice rolls and all sorts of balance adjustments that we can't possibly do even if we wanted to, because we don't have those kinds of hard number systems available to quantify any nerfing we do. The same imbalance issue applies for the Force - it's going to give you an advantage straight off the bat, and having even a little bit of cunning and intelligence to use it creatively only exacerbates that.

Speaking personally, some sort of 'picked list' is not exactly something I'd be in favor of, because it puts the Force back into the region of set powers akin to magic spells - which is something I've campaigned pretty strongly against and also generally seems to be what the members want as well.

I don't see a list of banned or set powers as the right approach to addressing the issue - honestly, I see it as the quick and obvious solution, but not the right solution. After all, we have a banned force powers list this timeline, and it's clearly still a point of concern for you guys, so it's not working as intended.

What we really have to do with the Force is more or less deconstruct it and establish what Force Users can do on the site, rather than simply coming up with a list of lolnos. We need a site resource on acceptable use of the Force, rather than relying on Wookieepedia like we have been.

 

[Logan]

Because this is star wars not D&D

If this was D&D we would put arbitrary limitations on ourselves.

 

[Tsunami]

I disagree. Why impose arbitrary limitations on ourselves?

I wouldn't personally see it that way. A lot of the force powers have a lot of similarities, or branches;
Push, Wave, Blast
Pull, Grip, Crush
Force Lighting, Electric Judgement
Everything Tutaminis

Trying to balance a million of the same thing is hard, if there was blanket terms for everything it would be easier to balance, have all the basic force powers open to everyone. As well as picking a small pool of offensive and defensive powers for people to use. Why do we need the choice between "Force Protection" and its variant "Protection Bubble."

For me there should be a basic force power list comprised of; Push, Grip, Jump, Speed, Sense.

Then how someone uses them is totally up to them, all these fancy names takes away from the fact that essentially... Force Crush is a different use of Force Grip.

 

[Richie B.]

Well some force powers we can get rid of, though those like force heal, and more to flavor characters rather than real PVP power house.

 

[Tsunami]

Speaking personally, some sort of 'picked list' is not exactly something I'd be in favor of, because it puts the Force back into the region of set powers akin to magic spells - which is something I've campaigned pretty strongly against and also generally seems to be what the members want as well.

I don't see a list of banned or set powers as the right approach to addressing the issue - honestly, I see it as the quick and obvious solution, but not the right solution. After all, we have a banned force powers list this timeline, and it's clearly still a point of concern for you guys, so it's not working as intended.

If you did away with the idea of Magic users vs Weapon users and made characters that were broad and opened it up as the in between then maybe there would be no advantages?

 

[Green Ranger]

If you did away with the idea of Magic users vs Weapon users and made characters that were broad and opened it up as the in between then maybe there would be no advantages?

How would you suggest we do that? I'm genuinely asking because the whole 'you either are strong in the Force or you aren't' thing is kind of tricky to make a gray area about.

 

[Painus]

Just make everyone Level 20 Wizards with infinite casts-per-day of Level 9 and under spells.

 

[MasterTyvokka]

The Force is tricky. Balancing it, even more so. Even in D&D, which is the go-to system for roleplaying, magic users are always more powerful, and that's in a system with numbers and dice rolls and all sorts of balance adjustments that we can't possibly do even if we wanted to, because we don't have those kinds of hard number systems available to quantify any nerfing we do. The same imbalance issue applies for the Force - it's going to give you an advantage straight off the bat, and having even a little bit of cunning and intelligence to use it creatively only exacerbates that.

Speaking personally, some sort of 'picked list' is not exactly something I'd be in favor of, because it puts the Force back into the region of set powers akin to magic spells - which is something I've campaigned pretty strongly against and also generally seems to be what the members want as well.

I don't see a list of banned or set powers as the right approach to addressing the issue - honestly, I see it as the quick and obvious solution, but not the right solution. After all, we have a banned force powers list this timeline, and it's clearly still a point of concern for you guys, so it's not working as intended.

What we really have to do with the Force is more or less deconstruct it and establish what Force Users can do on the site, rather than simply coming up with a list of lolnos. We need a site resource on acceptable use of the Force, rather than relying on Wookieepedia like we have been.

I fully support a "how to use the Force guide" I think its a much better idea than the list. Although I don't mind the list so much. The problem I had with it was the fact that some of the Force powers that were banned, while obviously not useable in pvp, didn't need to be banned for story purposes. I know this question is a bit off topic from the OP but will listing force powers be required in the new TL due to the pvp focus?

I never minded training in this TL. Although it could drag out at times. But since it is a major part of being a Sith or Jedi it wasn't terrible in those settings. I am glad the ranks are being streamlined though.

 

[Miz]

The Force is already broken OP in canon.

 

[Green Ranger]

I fully support a "how to use the Force guide" I think its a much better idea than the list. Although I don't mind the list so much. The problem I had with it was the fact that some of the Force powers that were banned, while obviously not useable in pvp, didn't need to be banned for story purposes. I know this question is a bit off topic from the OP but will listing force powers be required in the new TL due to the pvp focus?

I never minded training in this TL. Although it could drag out at times. But since it is a major part of being a Sith or Jedi it wasn't terrible in those settings. I am glad the ranks are being streamlined though.

Well, it's not required now, so...probably not. It honestly depends on what's determined in the think tank, but it seems likely that there won't be a mandatory list, since most members eventually do away with those lists once they've been around for a while. When lists aren't enforced, then using one is....kind of a crutch.

 

[Gamov]

I always did loathe training. This change has my full endorsement.

As far as Force powers and whatnot goes, please tell me all of that useless Sith Alchemy/Magic stuff is being canned.

 

[Tsunami]

How would you suggest we do that? I'm genuinely asking because the whole 'you either are strong in the Force or you aren't' thing is kind of tricky to make a gray area about.

Personally, I'm looking at it from a purely PvP standpoint, I'd like to make that clear and would want in no way to ruin peoples fun out of PvP with my ideas.

So realistically, a lot of what I'm going to talk about is going to boil down to stats at first.

The main reason is because it is highly unrealistic that a character who is a man of 6 ft. weighing in at 200 lbs is NOT going to be out muscled by a woman of 5ft. 5" weighing around 120 lbs. However, a woman of 5ft 5" who is a cyborg, weighing at a much larger weight and aided by a her augmentations, may well to be able to hold her own or out muscle the brutish male character.

There are so many factors with stats that just cant be kept in check. The 7/10 for a human male could well be the 4/10 for a female wookie. I can't tell you how I would add realism to that situation, that's a really tough one for me with so little experience.

What I can do with stats is change them to points that decrease in a PvP scenario. What I mean by that is that exhaustion regardless of how strong a human being is, it is fairly similar. Trust me, I've been MMA fighting for a lot of my life and I can tell you those lads who have natural strength on there side, they hit the SAME as everyone else once they are exhausted.

My proposition: Two classes.

WARRIOR: Stronger in Physical, More Endurance

SORCERER: Stronger in the force. Limited Endurance.

You might say that "Hey it is unfair that the warrior is physically strong and has more endurance while the sorcerer only has the force" but seeing as we have already deemed the force more powerful than the sword I feel it is an even trade. Bellow I will do the stats a person acquires upon picking a class. These would be NON negotiable and are only an example of how the system would work rather than it being a polished thing.

Warrior -
Strength: 15
Intelligence: 5
Endurance: 20

Sorcerer -
Strength: 7
Intelligence: 10
Endurance: 15

Regardless of whats happening in a post (After the first 2 which tend to be less aggressive more "HEY GUY" kind of things.) Result in the loss of 1 point of Endurance. At the point which a stat hits 0 a character is deemed "Exhausted" Within that post a player may use a force power, or a physical move such as a jump, takedown, powerful slash of a weapon. Each one of the results in the loss of there respective points.

Eventually you reach a point that regardless of if someone is a force user, weapon user they all eventually reach a point of exhaustion and are on the same playing field. The force is something that drains a person, the same as swinging and repeatedly leaping towards an opponent. These are calculated things that would be tracked and eventually level the two out.

The fighting style is still down to the Writer, they can rush in and try to end it as quickly as possible wasting there main offensive stat or they can play smart. If you wanted to make it so there was a clear difference between a Knight and the Dark Lord, I could probably work that out too. The numbers are just examples above a way of showing you how the stats might be layed out.

In regards to the strength of species vs species or Sex vs Sex, that's just a tough one that I would need some time to wrap my head around.


Anyways you are welcome to tell me that's to much work and while its a nice idea it wont work, I am fairly new here and you know what has been done in the past. However when I'm not training, I would be happy to try and fiddle around with some numbers for you guys if you wished to try it.

 

[Saul]

I'm all for blanket statements like "The Force lets you move things, the Force lets you sense where things will be moved, the Force lets you feel things, the Force lets you sense how those things will feel, etc." How do you reconcile that with Force Lightning, though; are you using your mind to create positive and negative charges in yourself and your foe to create arcs of lightning or what not... because if we're playing around with ions and the like then it's gonna get technobabble fast and people are gonna screw around with Force-nukes or spontaneous combustion or time-stopping by manipulating tachyons or whatever. We could just say "Lightning exists because Episodes II, III, and VI" and leave it at that, but then some jerkface is gonna go "If I can electrocute things, can I also set them on fire?" and then we get "Conflagrate" and the slippery slope that leads to other questionable Legends abilities like Force Light, Spear of Midnight Black, Shatterpoint and the like.

As for restrictions on abilities, I think it's pretty clear that it's immediate-intent based. A telekinetic move (a la push) that doesn't intend to harm isn't Dark Side. A telekinetic move that does intend to harm (a la choke) is. Lightning is harmful. Making yourself jump higher isn't. It doesn't matter if you're jumping so you can stab someone, the immediate intent is just to jump.

I'm hopeful for a much more fluid and narrative style of Force use, which in and of itself will eliminate magical fantasy spells and keep to the Star Wars theme, though. Looking forward to see the TT's thoughts on that.

 

[Painus]

I'd rather not end up restricting everyone in PvP based on what "class" they pick at chargen. We're trying to move away from DnD, not closer towards it.

Again, like you said, everything is subjective when you get down to dealing with species v. species and sex v. sex physical and mental characteristics, which is pretty unfeasible to handle once you realize how expansive that list of species is.

EDIT: Like @Saul said, I'd much rather prefer a more blanket statement of what the Force can manipulate, but balancing the powergamers and people who just absolutely want to set things aflame with their mind also has to come into consideration. Moving towards a more fluid and narrative style of describing the Force is what we desperately need, rather than setting a list of the spells your Magus has and then dealing with the OOC bickering of "B-but your Magus can't select that spell until level 11!!!!!"

 

[Loco]

@Tsunami

You're relying on a set stat system though, which the site currently does not require or enforce, mainly for the reasons you stated in your posts. Doing so would require a major change site wide and a whole boat load of rules and standards- it's an entirely new approach to combat that is much more tabletop than it is free form writing.

 

[Aleksandr]

I look forward to seeing what ranks the Sacred Band of Zoist will have.

 

[Tsunami]

I'd rather not end up restricting everyone in PvP based on what "class" they pick at chargen. We're trying to move away from DnD, not closer towards it.

Again, like you said, everything is subjective when you get down to dealing with species v. species and sex v. sex physical and mental characteristics, which is pretty unfeasible to handle once you realize how expansive that list of species is.

EDIT: Like @Saul said, I'd much rather prefer a more blanket statement of what the Force can manipulate, but balancing the powergamers and people who just absolutely want to set things aflame with their mind also has to come into consideration. Moving towards a more fluid and narrative style of describing the Force is what we desperately need, rather than setting a list of the spells your Magus has and then dealing with the OOC bickering of "B-but your Magus can't select that spell until level 11!!!!!"

EDIT: @Loco

That's more than fair, honestly a complex system is always going to detract from the fun of things for the sake of balance. Some people love Star Wars just because of the ability to blow shit up with there mind, I wouldn't want to ruin that. Mine was just an idea that more than likely has been brought up previously.

I'm just the new guy haha.

 

[Green Ranger]

Personally, I'm looking at it from a purely PvP standpoint, I'd like to make that clear and would want in no way to ruin peoples fun out of PvP with my ideas.

So realistically, a lot of what I'm going to talk about is going to boil down to stats at first.

The main reason is because it is highly unrealistic that a character who is a man of 6 ft. weighing in at 200 lbs is NOT going to be out muscled by a woman of 5ft. 5" weighing around 120 lbs. However, a woman of 5ft 5" who is a cyborg, weighing at a much larger weight and aided by a her augmentations, may well to be able to hold her own or out muscle the brutish male character.

There are so many factors with stats that just cant be kept in check. The 7/10 for a human male could well be the 4/10 for a female wookie. I can't tell you how I would add realism to that situation, that's a really tough one for me with so little experience.

What I can do with stats is change them to points that decrease in a PvP scenario. What I mean by that is that exhaustion regardless of how strong a human being is, it is fairly similar. Trust me, I've been MMA fighting for a lot of my life and I can tell you those lads who have natural strength on there side, they hit the SAME as everyone else once they are exhausted.

My proposition: Two classes.

WARRIOR: Stronger in Physical, More Endurance

SORCERER: Stronger in the force. Limited Endurance.

You might say that "Hey it is unfair that the warrior is physically strong and has more endurance while the sorcerer only has the force" but seeing as we have already deemed the force more powerful than the sword I feel it is an even trade. Bellow I will do the stats a person acquires upon picking a class. These would be NON negotiable and are only an example of how the system would work rather than it being a polished thing.

Warrior -
Strength: 15
Intelligence: 5
Endurance: 20

Sorcerer -
Strength: 7
Intelligence: 10
Endurance: 15

Regardless of whats happening in a post (After the first 2 which tend to be less aggressive more "HEY GUY" kind of things.) Result in the loss of 1 point of Endurance. At the point which a stat hits 0 a character is deemed "Exhausted" Within that post a player may use a force power, or a physical move such as a jump, takedown, powerful slash of a weapon. Each one of the results in the loss of there respective points.

Eventually you reach a point that regardless of if someone is a force user, weapon user they all eventually reach a point of exhaustion and are on the same playing field. The force is something that drains a person, the same as swinging and repeatedly leaping towards an opponent. These are calculated things that would be tracked and eventually level the two out.

The fighting style is still down to the Writer, they can rush in and try to end it as quickly as possible wasting there main offensive stat or they can play smart. If you wanted to make it so there was a clear difference between a Knight and the Dark Lord, I could probably work that out too. The numbers are just examples above a way of showing you how the stats might be layed out.

In regards to the strength of species vs species or Sex vs Sex, that's just a tough one that I would need some time to wrap my head around.


Anyways you are welcome to tell me that's to much work and while its a nice idea it wont work, I am fairly new here and you know what has been done in the past. However when I'm not training, I would be happy to try and fiddle around with some numbers for you guys if you wished to try it.

Highlighted in red the key statement in all of this, and the problem with it. As Painus said, this kind of hard, set numbers system is something we actively try to avoid on the site, because we take pride in the freeform nature of the RP. Now, by all means don't take what I'm saying as me saying that it's a bad system or anything, but the problem is that conceptually, within the confines of the site's style and expectations, any sort of hard number-based ruleset is the direct opposite of what so many members of the site come here for, so it's not exactly a good fit for the site to implement a ruleset like that that's so numbers-based.

Admittedly, part of the reason why we have so much difficulty with balancing things is because of that aversion to a standardized ruleset, but from my experience I'd say that most members would outright reject the proposal if we tried to pitch it. On a personal level, I know I would be strongly opposed to it myself, because part of the reason I've stuck around for ten years is because we have the freedom that comes from not using a ruleset like the one you're proposing here.

I'm all for blanket statements like "The Force lets you move things, the Force lets you sense where things will be moved, the Force lets you feel things, the Force lets you sense how those things will feel, etc." How do you reconcile that with Force Lightning, though; are you using your mind to create positive and negative charges in yourself and your foe to create arcs of lightning or what not... because if we're playing around with ions and the like then it's gonna get technobabble fast and people are gonna screw around with Force-nukes or spontaneous combustion or time-stopping by manipulating tachyons or whatever. We could just say "Lightning exists because Episodes II, III, and VI" and leave it at that, but then some jerkface is gonna go "If I can electrocute things, can I also set them on fire?" and then we get "Conflagrate" and the slippery slope that leads to other questionable Legends abilities like Force Light, Spear of Midnight Black, Shatterpoint and the like.

As for restrictions on abilities, I think it's pretty clear that it's immediate-intent based. A telekinetic move (a la push) that doesn't intend to harm isn't Dark Side. A telekinetic move that does intend to harm (a la choke) is. Lightning is harmful. Making yourself jump higher isn't. It doesn't matter if you're jumping so you can stab someone, the immediate intent is just to jump.

I'm hopeful for a much more fluid and narrative style of Force use, which in and of itself will eliminate magical fantasy spells and keep to the Star Wars theme, though. Looking forward to see the TT's thoughts on that.

I've always headcanoned that lightning is a manifestation of pure dark side energy, since it doesn't really behave at all like real lightning. That said though, I'm open to characters manifesting the Force as flames or whatever if they want to - I've always advocated for creative usage of the Force, and I think it applies here as well. Does it stylistically fit in with what is strictly canon? Probably not, but at the same time if we were canon purists we'd have push, lightsaber throw, jump, speed and lightning, which is...incredibly limiting for our players.

What I find interesting, though, is that powers like Spear of Midnight Black keep seeming to be thrown around as examples of cheapness and a reason why the Force should be nerfed. I don't disagree that that power is a bit odd, but...Spear of Midnight Black seems to have this stigma of OPness about it when all you're doing is basically throwing a javelin at someone. There's also no mention of it being impervious to being blocked, deflected or anything like that either, so I don't know why people use that particular power as an example when it's really quite basic compared to some of the other, truly ridiculous things that Legends has come up with over the years.

 

[Marcus]

I like what @Saul laid out in that we use the Force in a more narrative way, going back to the three main areas (Alter, Control, Sense). That said, the aforementioned and praised guide to using the force would be necessary in this style and would be fantastic!

 

[Tsunami]

@Green Ranger

I totally get that dude, I just thought that after making my statement I should back it up with something solid. I personally can't wait to PvP regardless of what happens with force powers.

#ForceWormhole