Judicial Activism?

[Flame]

What are your thoughts on judicial activism? As a conservative I oppose it because in general it fights the values that I stand for. School in prayer, creationist teaching, gay rights and other issues.

However, some judicial judges believe that the Constitution is elastic and changes over time from age to age-I am an originalist and believe that the Constitution has stayed the same since over about 300 years of our country's founding.

What are your thoughts on judicial activism?

 

[Sovereign]

Oh woah, where do I begin?

 

[Ru the Boatswain]

Oh woah, where do I begin?

The beginning.

 

[Viggy]

What are your thoughts on judicial activism? As a conservative I oppose it because in general it fights the values that I stand for. School in prayer, creationist teaching, gay rights and other issues.

However, some judicial judges believe that the Constitution is elastic and changes over time from age to age-I am an originalist and believe that the Constitution has stayed the same since over about 300 years of our country's founding.

What are your thoughts on judicial activism?

If you believe in the Constitution, but not in giving equal rights to LGBT people, then explain this:

No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

 

[Flame]

If you believe in the Constitution, but not in giving equal rights to LGBT people, then explain this:

No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Gay rights has never in any society as far as I'm aware been considered a privelege. In most societies even in Rome up until the Roman empire fell gay marriage/mating was and is frowned upon.

 

[Genkaku]

The constitution did pretty well not spelling out every detail but in doing so also means that people need to figure out what exactly each thing means.

A good example is the whole gun control issue. Some people take the right to bear arms as meaning any weapons they like, while others it just varies.

Gay rights for example Viggy made a good point that really, who in their right mind would go "lets deny people something others have just because they kiss other men or women? Thatll fly in a country that is supposedly built on life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness!"

 

[Sovereign]

Gay rights has never in any society as far as I'm aware been considered a privelege. In most societies even in Rome up until the Roman empire fell gay marriage/mating was and is frowned upon.

Yeah, that's just not true.

 

[Malz]

If you want Christianity in school, then you gotta include Torah studies, Qu'ran studies, Vedas studies, see where I'm going with this?

But back on topic, the whole reason the judicial system exists is because these are people who make it their job to understand the Constitution better than the public (and to give checks and balances to the other branches of government). Sometimes you just gotta trust their judgment.

 

[Viggy]

Gay rights has never in any society as far as I'm aware been considered a privelege. In most societies even in Rome up until the Roman empire fell gay marriage/mating was and is frowned upon.

First of all, many ancient societies were perfectly accepting of gays.

And second, regardless of the ancient societies, how about current societies?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory


And perhaps you missed this bit of the quote I gave from your Constitution...

nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

I don't think LGBT people have equal protection of the law. At all. In many states, they can be freely discriminated against by employers and the like.

 

[Flame]

If you want Christianity in school, then you gotta include Torah studies, Qu'ran studies, Vedas studies, see where I'm going with this?

But back on topic, the whole reason the judicial system exists is because these are people who make it their job to understand the Constitution better than the public (and to give checks and balances to the other branches of government). Sometimes you just gotta trust their judgment.

This makes no sense imo. Even in colonial America Christianity was taught in schools as truth. I see NO problem with this. No where in the Constitution does it mention separation of church and state. That phrase is not found in the Constitution. I would know. I read the articles today.

 

[Genkaku]

If you want Christianity in school, then you gotta include Torah studies, Qu'ran studies, Vedas studies, see where I'm going with this?

But back on topic, the whole reason the judicial system exists is because these are people who make it their job to understand the Constitution better than the public (and to give checks and balances to the other branches of government). Sometimes you just gotta trust their judgment.

I would be 100% for an academic study of the religions of the world in schools. Judism, Hinduism, Buddism, Christianity, Islam, all they could fit in.

I think a full academic look and exposure to the teachings, thoughts, and development of the religions in schools would be WONDERFUL. So long as NONE of the religions are taught as a "this is the right one" or better then any of the others.

 

[Nameless]

This makes no sense imo. Even in colonial America Christianity was taught in schools as truth. I see NO problem with this. No where in the Constitution does it mention separation of church and state. That phrase is not found in the Constitution. I would know. I read the articles today.

But the Constitution does promise freedom of religion, which means freedom from religion if you don't want it shoved down your childrens throats in a public school yet lack the funds for a secular private. It makes more sense to have religion specific schools private and secular schools public imo.

 

[Viggy]

This makes no sense imo. Even in colonial America Christianity was taught in schools as truth. I see NO problem with this. No where in the Constitution does it mention separation of church and state. That phrase is not found in the Constitution. I would know. I read the articles today.

Schooling is mandated by law in the USA.

Therefore, teaching Christianity as fact in American schools would be effectively forcing your religion on people. You seriously see nothing wrong with that?

 

[Sovereign]

No where in the Constitution does it mention separation of church and state. That phrase is not found in the Constitution. I would know. I read the articles today.

It's called a constitutional convention.

 

[Ru the Boatswain]

If you want Christianity in school, then you gotta include Torah studies, Qu'ran studies, Vedas studies, see where I'm going with this?

But back on topic, the whole reason the judicial system exists is because these are people who make it their job to understand the Constitution better than the public (and to give checks and balances to the other branches of government). Sometimes you just gotta trust their judgment.

No. A christian school is a private institution and teaches what it wants.

And the leaders of the Judicial system are not so educated as you think. Pretty much the lawyers that no one seems to like anymore know anything. They don't get elected often anymore.

 

[Malz]

Flame, of course it was taught back then. Back then, if you didn't practice it, you were hated. Not only that, but in colonial America they taught them the Bible as a way of consolidating control. What better way to make kids behave than to tell them that misbehaving would give the townsfolk a reason to burn them at a stake? Puritanism was absolutist, something that is to its core against American values of liberty. And though it is not in the Constitution, it is in the Bill of Rights under the Establishment Clause.

Genkaku, I'm also all for objective study of religions. The problem is there are people who constantly argue that theirs is right, so if we allow sanctioned public school practice of a religion, others will rightfully argue that it is exclusionary to other religions. Best to just keep it out, leave deep religious instruction at home and church. That way you can focus on religion's role in history in school and not get into the legal arguments.

[Edit]I'm talking about public schools. Private ones are, as you said, allowed to teach whatever they want, and I'm fine with that. Sorry for the confuzzlement[/Edit]

 

[Flame]

First of all, many ancient societies were perfectly accepting of gays.

And second, regardless of the ancient societies, how about current societies?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory


And perhaps you missed this bit of the quote I gave from your Constitution...

nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

I don't think LGBT people have equal protection of the law. At all. In many states, they can be freely discriminated against by employers and the like.

In the earlier centuries of ancient Rome (particularly during the Roman Republic) and prior to its Christianization, the Lex Scantinia forbade homosexual acts.

See even your own article agrees with me. Homosexuality has been frowned upon in many societies for obvious reasons. It's considered a perversion and rightly so. I would know I struggle with the sins of fetishism and I fight against it every day.

Okay I wasn't considering that form of argument. :confused: How are gays discriminated against in the workplace? Where I live in Colorado you can get a job as easily as being gay as if you are straight.

 

[Genkaku]

They are discriminated against in the same way colored skin causes discrimination. People treat the other differently if they realize they are gay or find out.

Its just skin color is protected, sexuality is not.

 

[Flame]

Schooling is mandated by law in the USA.

Therefore, teaching Christianity as fact in American schools would be effectively forcing your religion on people. You seriously see nothing wrong with that?

No. If I really believe that what I believe is really real then the kindest thing I can do for YOU is to pass my message on to you and to your kids. What is so wrong and hateful about that? Ask yourself this, why is it that at a football game in Michigan before the game starts they can recite the Koran but Bible reading and prayer in school or even having a John 3:16 message out on the field is wrong? To me I see this as blatant persecution of Christians.

 

[Genkaku]

No. If I really believe that what I believe is really real then the kindest thing I can do for YOU is to pass my message on to you and to your kids. What is so wrong and hateful about that? Ask yourself this, why is it that at a football game in Michigan before the game starts they can recite the Koran but Bible reading and prayer in school or even having a John 3:16 message out on the field is wrong? To me I see this as blatant persecution of Christians.

That michigan example is more uneven enforcement by people not handling the situations fairly. Not really a blatant difference.