The Treaty of Agamar OOC

[Darles Chickens]

1. Due to the timing of my attacks, if Maro is reacting after the sound of the blaster firing, he would be very hard pressed to get a defense up in time to prevent the pull, as the timing of the pull is fractions of a second after the blaster fires.
   
   It would be difficult to say that Maro wasn't expecting Mors to do something that'd cause this group of Jedi (The Sith's mortal enemies, and constant gateway into combat) to attack. If I was in his shoes, I'd have my guard up more than usual, so I'd have to argue that. If Maro is face to face with people he knows to be ready to fight him, he'd be ready to defend himself. Creating plans in his head before the attack even occurred.
2. I'm not entirely sure a kinetic shield would prevent Maro from being affected by the force pull, seeing as a pull, unlike a push, would originate on Maro, as opposed to a push which would originate from Kalii.
   
   From what I've read, the force pull has been reverted using a deflect before, while it never directly happens in the canon, there are a few instances in legends and I know this forum is trying to keep with the Canon, but I think the existence of force deflect as an ability and not its applications should be enough for it to be valid. It's also a viable defense for any kinetic attack in star wars d20 RPGs (I'm not too familiar with those, but I have played a little bit. Haven't had to use force deflect though.) Also, as I understand it, a pull originates through invisible 'tendrils' in the force, not directly manipulating someone's physical form.
   
   
   
3. So due to the new rules, Kalii would have had to drop hiding her presence in order to shield against the mental attack, likewise, in order to launch her force pull she would have to drop the mental shielding, which wouldnt be much of a problem because by that time Sov’s character would be hit by Cassus force push, negating his mental attack if he was still maintaining it.

Yeah, I'm fine with that. I'm failing to see how relevant it is to the action, other than the statement about her having used force energy, and Maro having not used any-- which to that, I'd say that she's still used more energy than he has at this point, right?

4. Even if the shield worked to prevent the force pull, i do not believe it would absorb the energy of the pull for Maro to utilize at will.Force deflect's
nature is to do that, it takes in the energy, and deflects it back at the attacker. It's used for both force kinetics, and blaster energy. Jedi and Sith have used to deflect, and reflect force lightning which I'm sure we can agree is more powerful than a kinetic attack.



5. So though i feel this would be covered by the previous point, i would like to point out that Maro wouldnt be able to just flick the energy back and immediately turn it into a force push. Even if he was able to absorb the energy with the shield he just summoned, he would then have to focus again to launch a force push.
Yeah, these two posts are pretty similar. The way the ability works is pretty quick. She might have a split second to take a footstep before he'd send it back, but I doubt she'd have enough time to close the gap, seeing as she's pulling him towards her to cover said gap, yaknow?



6. I would say the shots are unlikely to hit, but im sure you already know that

Yeah, pretty much playing off the fact that Maro would see an opportunity and utilize it. Her back was turned so he sort of let loose some shots in hopes that they might land.


As another note, I want to be flexible in my combat rps so that both fighters get their hits in, my goal isn't to dispute and argue attacks for the sake of arguing, while I'm new to this site, I've had my share of combat rp in other communities where that sort of constructive criticism doesn't exist and it's dreadful. So please, if you have any more questions or concerns, let's sort those out or debate them. I'm really open to most things!

 

[Soverin]

Hang on, now, before things get intense. This can be talked out. Internecion, I appreciate you backing me up but I'm glad Ral and Barden brought up their concern, and I'd be happy to defend my case and help get things straight.

Honestly, if he was hitting it that hard to cause transparisteel to spiderweb (which he was), he'd have fracture more than a few bones and have a concussion

We're not talking about a human --- we're talking about an alien, an Anzat. I want to reference the Wookiepedia in terms of Mors ability to take a blow like that and still be on his feet: "While Anzati tended to possess exceptional might and often startling reflexes, at best, they could reflect thrice that of a pinnacle Human's athletic ability;" (cite) This is a character who fits into the quality of at best. Mors is pretty fit for an Anzat, which would render him practically impossibly fit for a human. Its not difficult to assume he'd be able to endure a lot more than humans.

He was also in the process of turning, and thusly, when he was hit, its not ensured that he hit his back against the glass. He wouldn't just pancake against it like a starfish. As you stated he "flew through the air like a ragdoll," and ragdolls don't fly in a straight line from one side.

Also, he wouldn't haven't gotten into a defensive stance by the time he was hit with that push

"When Mors turned himself to get into a defensive stance, he was greeted by" --- Mors hadn't assumed a defensive stance, he was in the process of turning to do so.

Going from just having gotten slammed into a big piece of glass, to being delirious and incapable of calling on the Force (which he tries to do), to suddenly clearing his vision (using Force RAAAAGE I'm assuming), grabbing his pistol, quickly moving behind some nearby cover, ---

Imagine being in a fight and being snuck by the guy you're fighting, you get hit in the jaw, and suddenly you're blind and you've forgotten where you are or what you're doing or whats happening, but you're making moves against the threat based on your instinct? That is what combat adrenaline is --- now imagine that times 5, literally corrupting you and forcing you to go on. Its known that Sith are stronger with the force than Jedi, literally allowing themselves to be molded and moved and shaped by it. Mors being hyped up on all that energy would undoubtedly allow him to move and attack based on his instincts. Instincts he's been able to strengthen over the course of centuries.

then firing an accurate barrage of bolts, assuming my character is still attacking Internecion and would be too distracted to stop the bolts.

This in the same way you assumed my character was busy with the councilwoman to not defend against you force pushing him against a window?

I genuinely would hate to sound like that guy, and I promise thats not my intention, but this sounds like a good bit of OOC crying to me. PVP is about giving and taking. you give and then you take. You can pick apart the post as much as you like, but in the end it'll be just that, nitpicking. There are no blatantly illogical concepts being thrown around --- Mors, a three-hundred year old physically corrupted alien assassin, hit a window and recovered and shot his blaster.

 

[Soverin]

But I certainly do think an admin should finalize this. If you want to message one or I can, I'm fine either way.

 

[Bardan Kex]

Hey @Bardan Kex I don't mean to be rude and genuinely hope I'm not - but at least until a counter point can be made, if it isn't something new to contribute and it's just kind of backing up something someone else said - can we at least wait until @Soverin can make a counter point before agreeing? Not that I agree or disagree i'm not stating my stance here - but for the lack of confusion with all of this, for the OOC board. That way we can look at one point at a time, respond to that point or give said RPer time to at least, then maybe give your agreement after his counter point can be made first? I of course value your input in this thread - asking this to keep it simple, you know? If this is an unfair request - my mistake, and carry on? LOL

Secondly - I need to reference Sov's post, but if he was using the Force as a kinetic shield of sorts, couldn't he have braced himself with the Force against the blast, or lessened it's impact? And as far as completely killing Sov or otherwise - there is a thing such as armor, and if Sov is wearing it - most generic armor has defenses against kinetic damage, right? Such as being thrashed around? In theory, if a force push gave him a concussion and broke bones as such - then literally every force push should have the force to break and shatter bones when hitting. Granted Sov did hit the transparisteel - but quiet honestly it is .. steel. A solid wall of steel - imagine a sedan going 60 on those crash commercials, the car likely hits a wall of some composition similiar to steel or brick - and completely shatters and destroys itself, enough momentum and force in the contact enough where it would break bones and give a concussion to those hitting plastic instead of an air bag for example - breaking bones and killing said dummy or person. Your telling me a force push has the same force of impact as a vehicle on those car crash commercials? Not to mention to generate enough force to punch -through- that brick or steel wall. The car always crumbles before the wall even cracks.
Now - I need to recognize I'm doing exactly what I was humbly asking if Barden refrain from doing - putting my 2 cents in before Sov can get his counter point out. I'll keep quiet now, just my two cents.
-Also, insert Darles in where it is due, where I have Sov in my post - i'm tired and lazy.

Firstly I understand your request, and beyond the following I am prepared to step back, if we'd like to discuss it away from the thread well we have the PM.

Secondly, Armor would not provide any sort of protection from the levels of force required to damage the (effectively) steel window. It would be like asking someone to put on a suit of armor and then jump from a roof of a building to see if the armor would prevent them from taking the damage. Additionally most armor would not prevent all kinetic damage from being thrashed around, a gunshot vs ballistic armor is often times still enough to knock a grown man off his feet and bruise or break his ribs depending on the rating of the armor.

Verses a normal force push, injury up to a broken bone could be expected. Against a stronger push broken bones and a concussion would be a guarantee depending on what the person hits, and death would be expected from the sort of blow that would do the damage described in the post.

 

[Internecion]

@Bardan Kex Thanks for your understand dude, and seriously your input too! I did feel kind of like a jerk even asking, but it's hella cool of you to understand where I'm coming from so easily.

 

[Oreus]

Keep in mind our goal is good story telling, not winning some battle. I know it can be tough, but we should work together to form the best story while still allowing unexpected twists from our enemy. I'm not going to argue for either side but to say that the rules are "keep it simple, sweetie". If you can't decide, let admins decide and work on relationship writing for next time.

 

[Internecion]

@Bauren yes

 

[Sreeya]

Hang on, now, before things get intense. This can be talked out. Internecion, I appreciate you backing me up but I'm glad Ral and Barden brought up their concern, and I'd be happy to defend my case and help get things straight.

We're not talking about a human --- we're talking about an alien, an Anzat. I want to reference the Wookiepedia in terms of Mors ability to take a blow like that and still be on his feet: "While Anzati tended to possess exceptional might and often startling reflexes, at best, they could reflect thrice that of a pinnacle Human's athletic ability;" (cite) This is a character who fits into the quality of at best. Mors is pretty fit for an Anzat, which would render him practically impossibly fit for a human. Its not difficult to assume he'd be able to endure a lot more than humans.

He was also in the process of turning, and thusly, when he was hit, its not ensured that he hit his back against the glass. He wouldn't just pancake against it like a starfish. As you stated he "flew through the air like a ragdoll," and ragdolls don't fly in a straight line from one side.

You're correct. I have also looked into this. The difference is that whereas this might kill a human, it would knock out an Anzati/break bones. The article says nothing about an entirely different bone density/structure. The primary advantage is sensory based. In the end, your character would be knocked out for sure after cracking the window made of transparisteel. This is the material used on the cockpits and canopies of starfighters. It can also take blaster/other hits. I'm sorry, but the anzati argument won't fly for having your character simply be winded and then be able to take perfect aim a second later when Ral's actions were directly timed one after another. IF we were to give the leeway of saying fine, your character isn't knocked out, you'd still be out for at least one round of replies before you can contribute again.

Imagine being in a fight and being snuck by the guy you're fighting, you get hit in the jaw, and suddenly you're blind and you've forgotten where you are or what you're doing or whats happening, but you're making moves against the threat based on your instinct? That is what combat adrenaline is --- now imagine that times 5, literally corrupting you and forcing you to go on. Its known that Sith are stronger with the force than Jedi, literally allowing themselves to be molded and moved and shaped by it. Mors being hyped up on all that energy would undoubtedly allow him to move and attack based on his instincts. Instincts he's been able to strengthen over the course of centuries.

Combat instinct? Absolutely agree with. Do you know what that's in relation to? Immediate defense against incoming blows. If you're disoriented from being hit, combat instinct is to protect and guard yourself as best as possible or lash out at an immediate threat. What you're doing is reaching for a blaster, aiming carefully and shooting. That is NOT adrenaline rushed combat instinct. That's you launching a whole new calculated/targeted attack while still reeling from a severe blow.

Also, sorry to break it to you, but in an rp setting, the 'Sith are stronger in the Force than Jedi' argument will NOT work. Go ahead and talk to any admin here about this. Jedi and Sith are evenly matched so everyone is on the same playing field. The only difference might be that Sith might have more offensive Force powers. But stronger? Certainly not.

I genuinely would hate to sound like that guy, and I promise thats not my intention, but this sounds like a good bit of OOC crying to me. PVP is about giving and taking. you give and then you take. You can pick apart the post as much as you like, but in the end it'll be just that, nitpicking. There are no blatantly illogical concepts being thrown around --- Mors, a three-hundred year old physically corrupted alien assassin, hit a window and recovered and shot his blaster.

I'm sorry but there are illogical concepts being thrown around here by you. The Anzati argument won't work to ensure that your character is fine and dandy after taking such a big hit. The 'Sith are stronger naturally' argument is completely false and will never apply in RP. And your concept of 'adrenaline rush' is very off in regards to this scenario.

Feel free to bring in admins, but I can assure you they'll echo the same thoughts at least in regards to the comment of 'Sith are stronger' argument.

 

[Soverin]

If an admin wants to pop in to check on this thats cool, but I mean its pretty unanimous. I think I'm being a little too competitive here, its my first actual PvP encounter outside of pre-TL duels. I'll take the L and have Mors concussed for a round of posts.

 

[Arcangel]

From what I've read, the force pull has been reverted using a deflect before, while it never directly happens in the canon, there are a few instances in legends and I know this forum is trying to keep with the Canon, but I think the existence of force deflect as an ability and not its applications should be enough for it to be valid. It's also a viable defense for any kinetic attack in star wars d20 RPGs (I'm not too familiar with those, but I have played a little bit. Haven't had to use force deflect though.) Also, as I understand it, a pull originates through invisible 'tendrils' in the force, not directly manipulating someone's physical form.


So after a brief bit of research, force deflection appears to deflect blaster energy and force lightning, another form of physical energy. A force pull would not be able to be blocked by it because the force is not a physical energy. I couldnt find any references to show it blocking a force push or pull in canon or legends, and D20 mechanics do not apply to SWRP as they are put in place purely for gameplay mechanics and balance.

 

[Internecion]

@Sovereign Regardless of how this turns out - are we allowing any redos, or a certain number - or just one - edit/repost in an RP? Usually people get at least one in an RP, am I wrong?

 

[Sreeya]

Regardless of how this turns out - are we allowing any redos, or a certain number - or just one - edit/repost in an RP? Usually people get at least one in an RP, am I wrong?

I think as long as we agree upon it mutually, editing whatever is fine. I'm not too concerned with number of times. However, I would stress not adding/removing anything we hadn't talked about. Admins can see edit history so being sneaky there won't work lol

 

[Internecion]

Of course, I'm even down if you guys want to all agree upon a limited number of edits - redos, too. To make it so there aren't unpractical and unlimited "wait i do over, totally saving my character from an otherwise check mate position" things coming up.

 

[Darles Chickens]

So after a brief bit of research, force deflection appears to deflect blaster energy and force lightning, another form of physical energy. A force pull would not be able to be blocked by it because the force is not a physical energy. I couldnt find any references to show it blocking a force push or pull in canon or legends, and D20 mechanics do not apply to SWRP as they are put in place purely for gameplay mechanics and balance.

There was a specific instance where Luke and Vader fought at a temple, and Vader used a kinetic ball of energy which is the same classification of energy that is used in a force push/pull and luke was able to deflect it.

Another instance also involving Luke also had him deflect a whirlwind of force energy which I imagine would be similar to the same thing?

This info can be found on the Wookiepedia if you'd like a link, or it's just under force deflection.


As I understand it, it's used to deflect energy, or attacks that a lightsaber can't. Or when a lightsaber is absent. I've built Maro to favor the force over lightsaber tactics. While he isn't incompetent with a lightsaber, he certainly isn't the best duelist to exist. I made it a sort of handicap to allow him to do these things because I thought it'd be interesting to fight, and play more of a 'mage' class.

 

[Arcangel]

There was a specific instance where Luke and Vader fought at a temple, and Vader used a kinetic ball of energy which is the same classification of energy that is used in a force push/pull and luke was able to deflect it.

Another instance also involving Luke also had him deflect a whirlwind of force energy which I imagine would be similar to the same thing?

This info can be found on the Wookiepedia if you'd like a link, or it's just under force deflection.


As I understand it, it's used to deflect energy, or attacks that a lightsaber can't. Or when a lightsaber is absent. I've built Maro to favor the force over lightsaber tactics. While he isn't incompetent with a lightsaber, he certainly isn't the best duelist to exist. I made it a sort of handicap to allow him to do these things because I thought it'd be interesting to fight, and play more of a 'mage' class.

Yeah i saw that instance too. Kenitite is actually a form of balled force lightning that can be thrown, so i dont really think it applies either because it is still a form of physical energy generated by the force instead of a telekinetic influence on the real world through the force.

However i am totally willing to come to a compromise. How about we say that Maro was able to partially defend against the force pull, lessening its effect? So he would still get pulled forward a bit, but not to the extent that i had planned.

Also i would suggest that from now on you should attempt to avoid using Legends material as reference, as the site no longer follows that material.

 

[Darles Chickens]

We can do something like that, yeah. I'll have to edit the post later, I've got to turn in for early work tomorrow.

Also, the ability is used by Yoda against sideous in episode III during the senate council chamber fight. In that instance, it's lightning, but in reference to Kinetite, there's still a ball of kinetic force energy, so if the lightning was the only thing the ability was to deflect, the kinetic barrier around it would go through the deflect and push/pull Luke, which doesn't happen. BUT That's not important. Digging too deep there, and there's no use. I'll edit my post accordingly tomorrow.

 

[Sreeya]

I think if we agree to the edits oocly, that should be okay with us moving on (I really don't wanna keep this stalled). So here's what we agreed upon:

1. Sov will be knocked out for a round of posts.

2. Kalii's pull isn't as effective/distance isn't as far as intended

3. Internecion is good to go ahead and post

We will all respond accordingly. And whenever you guys have time, you can go back and make the necessary edits. For now we will move on based on what we agreed on here. I hope this is agreeable to everyone.

 

[Internecion]

Well my post is more or less based around if Sov got anything off, such as that blaster fire, at either of the two jedi attacking Inter - that's mainly the only thing holding me back from posting.
Once I know that I can go ahead and throw my post up, which will probably be recovering and trying to do so in one piece rather then any practical counter attack anywhere in sight; and everything else can be editted accordingly, but yeah that more so revolves around Sov's choice. Honestly if I were him, I would take ya'll up on the repost unless he still wants to go through on the admin ruling; I still think being knocked unconcious is avoidable with the proper response ... not saying his isn't, or anything on any of that really because it's not my place to include myself any longer. But yeah ... that's mainly what's keeping me from posting, if I can figure that out I can try to get a mediocre one up in the next hour I have before sleep tonight.

--Or is that the outcome you want to happen with your character, @Soverin , ie. knocked out for a round of posting?

 

[Sreeya]

Well my post is more or less based around if Sov got anything off, such as that blaster fire, at either of the two jedi attacking Inter - that's mainly the only thing holding me back from posting.
Once I know that I can go ahead and throw my post up, which will probably be recovering and trying to do so in one piece rather then any practical counter attack anywhere in sight; and everything else can be editted accordingly, but yeah that more so revolves around Sov's choice. Honestly if I were him, I would take ya'll up on the repost unless he still wants to go through on the admin ruling; I still think being knocked unconcious is avoidable with the proper response ... not saying his isn't, or anything on any of that really because it's not my place to include myself any longer. But yeah ... that's mainly what's keeping me from posting, if I can figure that out I can try to get a mediocre one up in the next hour I have before sleep tonight.

--Or is that the outcome you want to happen with your character, @Soverin , ie. knocked out for a round of posting?

If an admin wants to pop in to check on this thats cool, but I mean its pretty unanimous. I think I'm being a little too competitive here, its my first actual PvP encounter outside of pre-TL duels. I'll take the L and have Mors concussed for a round of posts.

He had already agreed to edit into concussion. And tbh there's no real fair way to avoid the concussion. He can't re-write the bit about flying back. Any edit would have to come AFTER hitting the window. Otherwise he just gets a do-over, and we're not doing that. We're doing an edit after he already hit it. If he hits it, he'd likely be concussed.

 

[Internecion]

Your right he did admit to the concussion already - my mistake I overlooked that multiple times. I'm getting a short post up to keep this going, we have been stuck for awhile already. Pls excuse the shortened extent of it!