Walking as a woman in NYC

[jpchewy01]

So is it safe to say hello/good morning/afternoon to people when I walk, or is that considered immoral now and I should just keep my eyes on my phone screen where they belong and can't objectify anyone?

Don't reducto ad absurdum this. Arguments like this get us nowhere and shut down the conversation. Please provide an actual contribution to this discussion.

 

[jpchewy01]

https://storify.com/Aut_Omnia/why-you-shouldnt-share-the-nyc

Sorry for the double post but I feel like this is something important that should be pointed out. Apparently the filmmaker is using the video to make a connection between catcalling and minority dominant areas. He's hijacking an important issue for his own gentrification agenda.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

Don't reducto ad absurdum this.

 

[Insoulent]

Human beings suck, but they can be really cool too. Mostly the first one though. But we all already knew that, right?

/endthread

 

[Cainhurst Crow]

Don't reducto ad absurdum this. Arguments like this get us nowhere and shut down the conversation. Please provide an actual contribution to this discussion.

What? That's literally the extent by which I am worried about this. I tend to greet people when I'm walking because hey, I think thats a polite thing to do. If it isn't a polite thing to do and is actually incredibly offensive, I'd like to know so I don't get charged with harassment by someone taking my good intentions the wrong way.

 

[jpchewy01]

What? That's literally the extent by which I am worried about this. I tend to greet people when I'm walking because hey, I think thats a polite thing to do. If it isn't a polite thing to do and is actually incredibly offensive, I'd like to know so I don't get charged with harassment by someone taking my good intentions the wrong way.

A friendly, non-threatening "hello" to people is fine in a lot of places (especially friendly, open cities like New Orleans). But if you're in New York and a girl has earbuds in and you're following her telling her how beautiful she is, there's a problem.

 

[BLADE]

You find these kinds of men, disturbingly, in business and politics.

Disturbing implies surprising. It really shouldn't be. The logic of predatory capitalism, itself birthed in a recapitulation of previously avaricious systems --feudalism, tribalism, empire-- is largely analogous to that of sexual predation. What is the difference between the acquisitive alacrity of say Exxon-Mobil, and some jerk on the street who thinks women owe him attention and deference? Can anyone discern the structural similarities between the aggression of financial capitalism, particularly on Third World countries, and that of the average groper, raper, or domestic abuser?

A lot of these hegemonic structures flow from the top, but are alembicated with putative class gentility and reflexive genuflection to power. Certainly there are unique issues to loci of poverty and the attendant termini of race and deprivation but it strikes me that largely well-meaning white liberals and soft-leftists often focus on some "culture of poverty" (a subtly --though not always-- racialized one) to the detriment of seeing that sexism is far larger than simply covering or being endemic or ecdemic to one particular sector, class, demographic, etc. Often these self-same reformists have never even been to a place like Five Points, or Harlem or Compton.

I usually dislike laundering stories because as a white dude, I feel my role in this struggle is ally and squire (their story, everyone's struggle) but if I had to estimate, my wife --a surgeon, a member of the privileged class and the best person I have ever had the privilege of knowing-- gets more sexist treatment from people with Ivy League pedigrees and extensive experience at regattas than people with high school degrees and a spot on the local bowling team.

@Wookiee Dude: Seems like society has given you a short shrift. I'm sorry for you. But it seems to me that in your anger, you've largely turned against people who would be your natural allies in those struggles. Some of it seems to stem from an insecurity tied to the fact that your privilege (yes it is extant) is no longer so evident as to provide a bulwark against the fact that it's a very cold and very unfriendly world out there. Again. I am sorry for that.

However, I'm not going to bother deconstructing your posts, as others have some do with varying degrees of ability, but I'll simply offer links and suggestions of great feminist (and egalitarian) reading if and when you're ready. Until then, the struggle continues.

It may yet leave you behind.

All the best!

Prospero

 

[Derath Quinton]

That's the thing though, Kaeb. I do feel sorry for those less fortunate, and wish I could do what I can to make the world a better place for everyone. But I'm not going to feel more sorry for a woman just because she's a woman. Until such time I become good acquaintances with a woman (or man, as well), all I see is just another human being. They have equal pay (pretty big legal thing around here, I've noticed). They have equal opportunities (worked alongside women in my field of work, construction). They also have a lot more play with sex and/or parenthood. While that may be an issue here in the cities, it is not a very wide issue where I come from. There's women there with more auto mechanic smarts than I do, more medical smarts, and more business smarts. Those same women reap what they sow.

Now, I am not against feminism, but I am against the idea that sexual harassment is the biggest issue of our time. While it may be a big issue (and the fear of it bashed into a woman's mind), it is not the only issue of our time, and I have met many feminists who believe that it is. One of which was a very good friend. She and I argued basically the same points from different perspectives, and she was the one who introduced to me a lot of the issues. Unfortunately, she is not with us today. That has caused a sort of domino effect for me to try and learn more.

I've had a lot of female friends who have been raped, or sexually harassed, so I am very much against anything of the sort, don't be mistaken by the context of my previous comments. But, those same people have a very low intolerance to mere words. While they do not have to walk the streets of any cities, saving them from the constant words, they are still merely words. With that said, where I come from, very few words of unwanted sexual objectification leave a man's mouth as we, as a whole, are taught to be a lot more respectful than that. Indeed, before I moved to the city, I didn't know what a catcall was until my co-worker did it (exclusively an OW!), and the vast majority of responses were of the positive nature. So, in my mind at the time, I thought it was a friendly banter of sorts that city folk did. However, a lot of that mindset has changed long before I came here to SWRP. If I were to move back to the countryside, I wouldn't do it, mostly because there is a far higher standard of respectfulness there, and I would want a world like that.

Now, Prospero, I would like a further understanding of what this "privilege" is. I've read up some things on it, but they are pretty vague, and it is still a very alien concept to not just myself, but the vast majority of people where I come from. None of us feel we are privileged to anything, male or female, or color of your skin. And, please, do leave those links.

Also, Endling, I was using a small part of my life to strengthen one of Kaeb's points, not to use it as a "woe is me". So, kindly, **** off.

 

[Sovereign]

you're a ****ing idiot if you're into men's rights.

And sabotaging a men's rights conference is perfectly legitimate. **** you if you're into respectability politics

 

[Just Matt Now]

Human beings suck, but they can be really cool too. Mostly the first one though. But we all already knew that, right?

/endthread

Agreed.

 

[Bee]

That's the thing though, Kaeb. I do feel sorry for those less fortunate, and wish I could do what I can to make the world a better place for everyone. But I'm not going to feel more sorry for a woman just because she's a woman. Until such time I become good acquaintances with a woman (or man, as well), all I see is just another human being. They have equal pay (pretty big legal thing around here, I've noticed). They have equal opportunities (worked alongside women in my field of work, construction). They also have a lot more play with sex and/or parenthood. While that may be an issue here in the cities, it is not a very wide issue where I come from. There's women there with more auto mechanic smarts than I do, more medical smarts, and more business smarts. Those same women reap what they sow.

Now, I am not against feminism, but I am against the idea that sexual harassment is the biggest issue of our time. While it may be a big issue (and the fear of it bashed into a woman's mind), it is not the only issue of our time, and I have met many feminists who believe that it is. One of which was a very good friend. She and I argued basically the same points from different perspectives, and she was the one who introduced to me a lot of the issues. Unfortunately, she is not with us today. That has caused a sort of domino effect for me to try and learn more.

I've had a lot of female friends who have been raped, or sexually harassed, so I am very much against anything of the sort, don't be mistaken by the context of my previous comments. But, those same people have a very low intolerance to mere words. While they do not have to walk the streets of any cities, saving them from the constant words, they are still merely words. With that said, where I come from, very few words of unwanted sexual objectification leave a man's mouth as we, as a whole, are taught to be a lot more respectful than that. Indeed, before I moved to the city, I didn't know what a catcall was until my co-worker did it (exclusively an OW!), and the vast majority of responses were of the positive nature. So, in my mind at the time, I thought it was a friendly banter of sorts that city folk did. However, a lot of that mindset has changed long before I came here to SWRP. If I were to move back to the countryside, I wouldn't do it, mostly because there is a far higher standard of respectfulness there, and I would want a world like that.

Now, Prospero, I would like a further understanding of what this "privilege" is. I've read up some things on it, but they are pretty vague, and it is still a very alien concept to not just myself, but the vast majority of people where I come from. None of us feel we are privileged to anything, male or female, or color of your skin. And, please, do leave those links.

Also, Endling, I was using a small part of my life to strengthen one of Kaeb's points, not to use it as a "woe is me". So, kindly, **** off.

In all seriousness.. google it? Falling back on the, "I don't see it as a big deal where I live so it doesn't matter" thing is kinda silly.

 

[Derath Quinton]

In all seriousness.. google it? Falling back on the, "I don't see it as a big deal where I live so it doesn't matter" thing is kinda silly.

Please quote for me where I said it isn't a big deal because of where I come from? Unless my memory is failing me horribly, I stated that it is a big issue, but not the only big issue our world faces, and not a big issue widely faced in my hometown that I believe the rest of the world should be like. I could very well google the meaning of "privilege," but there is no fun in that.

Bee, unless you have something to add to the discussion, I advise you to leave it.

 

[Bee]

"With that said, where I come from," shows up in like, every post you make.

You don't need to go copy whatever Webster says privilege is. That isn't making an effort to understand an issue. You could like, maybe google "male privilege" which brings up a summary of this wikipedia entry (if you're using chrome) that is pretty simple to decipher:

Male privilege is a term for social, economic, and political advantages or rights that are made available to men solely on the basis of their sex. A man's access to these benefits may also depend on other characteristics such as race, sexual orientation and social class.​

What's cool is if you look up "white privilege" (also discussed in this thread!) the same thing happens! Holy crap these articles are written in a neutral tone and are about as un-biased as you can possibly get! Much more useful than looking through a dictionary!

White privilege (or white skin privilege) is a term for societal privileges that benefit white people beyond what is commonly experienced by non-white people under the same social, political, or economic circumstances.​

Trying to claim ignorance because something isn't an issue "where you come from" (do you not live on Earth?) is honestly the most ridiculous argument ever. One, you're probably not the mayor/godking of whatever place you live in and lack the omniscience to say for a fact that no one ever in your city/town/tribe/whatever doesn't catcall/harass women, and two, because google is free and it is very easy to use. Hell, you could actually find your own links and do your own reading! Ermagerd.

 

[Endling vas Precious]

Also, Endling, I was using a small part of my life to strengthen one of Kaeb's points, not to use it as a "woe is me". So, kindly, **** off.

Woah, that was rude and uncalled for.

@Bronitarian: I find it INCREDIBLY weird/off putting when someone says hello to me if I don't know them. A smile is fine, but actually saying 'hi/hello' just seems... odd. That's just me. I'm sure most people wouldn't have a problem with it?

The main reason I don't like people greeting me is because most of the time it's an invitation to a conversation I don't want to have, and it puts me into an uncomfortable situation.

 

[Marf]

I find it INCREDIBLY weird/off putting when someone says hello to me if I don't know them. A smile is fine, but actually saying 'hi/hello' just seems... odd. That's just me. I'm sure most people wouldn't have a problem with it?

The main reason I don't like people greeting me is because most of the time it's an invitation to a conversation I don't want to have, and it puts me into an uncomfortable situation.

I am EXACTLY the same and feel this way everytime I leave the house to go down the street, I absolutely dread when someone (of either gender) begins to talk to me. It's a personal thing, everyone deals with social interaction differently, which needs to be respected. Some people are more extroverted than others. Others, like myself, react to social situations very poorly.

Sorry, I haven't been paying attention to the discussion, I just found I could relate to Ling's comment.

 

[Derath Quinton]

"With that said, where I come from," shows up in like, every post you make.

You don't need to go copy whatever Webster says privilege is. That isn't making an effort to understand an issue. You could like, maybe google "male privilege" which brings up a summary of this wikipedia entry (if you're using chrome) that is pretty simple to decipher:

Male privilege is a term for social, economic, and political advantages or rights that are made available to men solely on the basis of their sex. A man's access to these benefits may also depend on other characteristics such as race, sexual orientation and social class.​

What's cool is if you look up "white privilege" (also discussed in this thread!) the same thing happens! Holy crap these articles are written in a neutral tone and are about as un-biased as you can possibly get! Much more useful than looking through a dictionary!

White privilege (or white skin privilege) is a term for societal privileges that benefit white people beyond what is commonly experienced by non-white people under the same social, political, or economic circumstances.​

Trying to claim ignorance because something isn't an issue "where you come from" (do you not live on Earth?) is honestly the most ridiculous argument ever. One, you're probably not the mayor/godking of whatever place you live in and lack the omniscience to say for a fact that no one ever in your city/town/tribe/whatever doesn't catcall/harass women, and two, because google is free and it is very easy to use. Hell, you could actually find your own links and do your own reading! Ermagerd.

Thank you, Bee. Wasn't that fun? Still, those were the same definitions I got and they still do not make sense to me. If such a thing exists, why does it? I don't agree with it! Everyone should have the same opportunities and such, in my eyes.

Also, just because I say, "where I come from," a lot, shouldn't convey any other meanings. I'll say it again. Where I come from, the people as a whole are very respectful and kind. Yeah, there are those who are ne'er-do-wells. Every community has those. But they number few and very far between because, like I said, we're raised to be respectful and uphold human values.

And I CAN claim ignorance to issues. Do you actively seek the issues that claim China? Or Afghanistan? Or South Africa? I know I don't. Why should it be alien for me to not know of issues that claim the cities that I have next to zero knowledge of? I knew cities were bad places in general, but I never got down to the gist of it all because I thought I'd never go living in a city, being all snug and cozy in my little town where issues are handled pretty well.

 

[Bee]

I'm not hyper-aware of all the terrible things happening in the rest of the world. Difference being, I don't try and act like some internet authority on topics I don't know anything about. And no, spoon feeding someone information they're too lazy to seek out on their own is pretty boring, 0/10 would not recommend.

I'm not sure how the wikipedia entries are difficult to understand. There's no one root cause for either of these issues. Do you not understand what male/white privilege looks like, or are you having problems with the concept because it may not happen where you live? I can almost promise you that both of these things are an issue in your area, unless you live on Mars and are surrounded by robots.

 

[Derath Quinton]

I don't know what it looks like.

 

[Bee]

Okay. I don't know where you live, so I'm going to try and pull a few general examples here that would apply to more or less any part of the USA.

If I fail in my job or career, I can feel sure this won’t be seen as a black mark against my entire sex’s capabilities.

I do not have to worry about the message my wardrobe sends about my sexual availability.

As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children’s media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male protagonists were (and are) the default.

Assuming I am heterosexual, magazines, billboards, television, movies, pornography, and virtually all of media is filled with images of scantily-clad women intended to appeal to me sexually. Such images of men exist, but are rarer.

Sexual harassment on the street virtually never happens to me. I do not need to plot my movements through public space in order to avoid being sexually harassed, or to mitigate sexual harassment.​

These are pretty obvious examples of male privilege.

You are (presumably) a guy - no one is going to say "wow, guys are bad at math!" if you can't do a math problem. No one is going to say you were "asking for it" if you left the house in shorts and a t-shirt, and something very bad happened to you. As a child, you probably had a lot of really kickass (fictional) male role models to look up to, who weren't defined by how sexy they were. Media caters to your sexual preferences, assuming you are heterosexual. And the last one kind of speaks for itself, and is sort of the entire point of this thread: no one is gonna follow you for ten minutes, invading your personal space, trying to get your phone number because you wanted to walk around the city for a bit.

The biggest male (or white) privilege is being oblivious that it exists. I hate to say it, but it is very Matrix-y. It's so deeply ingrained in Western culture that no one really questions it, and until it's brought to your (general you, not you personally) attention it can be really easy to ignore. Case in point, I can't really say a lot about how badly white privilege sucks (which it does, not arguing that) because I am white - I've never had anyone look down on me for the color of my skin, or make assumptions based on where they think I'm from - and realizing the fact that it was a thing at all was personally kind of hard for me to do. I grew up in a white neighborhood in a state that was overwhelmingly white. No one was discriminated against due to the color of their skin because we all looked the same. Accepting the fact that I have it better than other people "by default" because of something I can't control was really weird, but now that I've accepted that fact it's a lot easier to see.

The thing about pointing out male (or white) privilege is that by making note of it, no one is saying that men get by in life for free. No one is saying that men don't suffer, no one is saying that men aren't treated unfairly. No one is saying that women are eternal victims, either. Realizing there's a problem is the first step in changing what's wrong.

 

[Derath Quinton]

Ahhh, that does open my eyes, indeed. Thank you.

To another question. Right-minded folk will, obviously, do what they can to help a fellow human being without compromising themselves, be it helping fight for the rights and such that are deserved, and be respectful. But what of the malcontents? What... if there was a way without repercussion... could be done to "fix" them? Obviously, even if laws are in place, a criminal will still do criminal acts.