Walking as a woman in NYC

[Kaeb]

I'm seeing a lot of boring admin approaching this subject matter in the second last post, I'm hoping this is just an age/maturity thing and is isn't a dude in their twenties making these comments, because if it is then I think we should burn the forum down around us and piss on the ashes/their bed until they get weird.

 

[Bee]

 

[Brandon Rhea]

I'm seeing a lot of boring admin approaching this subject matter in the second last post, I'm hoping this is just an age/maturity thing and is isn't a dude in their twenties making these comments, because if it is then I think we should burn the forum down around us and piss on the ashes/their bed until they get weird.

Let's play a game.

I spy with my little eye... a pedantic piece of shit.

Go.

 

[Kaeb]

That's in the bible.

 

[Kaeb]

On topic:

"What are you complaining about? We have to run the same distance as you, so it’s equal!"

​

 

[Johnnysaurus Rex]

To be fair... that old white guy is probably already winded.

 

[Derath Quinton]

None of what I said was a joke. To be fair, I was not of sober mind to coherently present a logical argument, but basically what I said I will stand by. So here we go, sober of mind.

First off, just a few official definitions:

Catcall:
-Noun: a shrill whistle or shout of disapproval, typically one made at a public meeting or performance.
-Verb: make a whistle, shout, or comment of a sexual nature to a woman passing by. (Though in my honest opinion, it should say, "to a man or woman passing by")

Harass(ment):
-Noun: subject to aggressive pressure or intimidation.

Sexual Harassment:
-Noun: harassment (typically of a woman) in a workplace, or other professional or social situation, involving the making of unwanted sexual advances or obscene remarks.

Notice the underlined bit. No where in that video were there sexual advances or obscene remarks of sexual nature, just the occasional, "Damn, girl!". Asking for a number is not a sexual advance. Regardless of whether that is the intent, asking a number is just asking a number, and no matter how we dance around the issue there is nothing illegal about it. California might be the exception, but I do not know their state laws.

I'll be honest right here and say I have catcalled before while stuck in traffic in the middle of Seattle, and I'll be damned if I didn't receive far more smiles and laughs than middle fingers. Got a few numbers that way, too, but not through my own seeking. Maybe it was the way I did it, or whatever, but... whatever. I made those girls smile and probably feel comfortable about their body, and that made my day. Take that however you will.

Now, with that said, some of those people that got put on camera were literal creeps, the guys that followed her. That right there is unacceptable. But even then, with that amount of creepiness, it cannot be legally classified as sexual harassment, or even stalking, for that matter. In all honesty, those were the only ones that deserved to be put in the final edits. The guys going all, "Damn, girl," that's how they flirt or whatever in their community, where the women there, in general, like it that way. That brings me to another point... the type of community you're around. If you live close to the ghetto or where gangs reside, not a lot of what's been said here will change.

Myself? I come from the country, and very much a conservative of traditional values, but I've grown up as seeing women as just another human being on the same level pedestal who, down south, is expected to pull their own weight. A lot of the time that's how another woman earned my respect. I recently moved to the city though and a lot of stuff, like this, is still new to me, and it baffles me that there are such issues around the world, that women are propped up and knocked down a level or two. Generally, we don't have a lot of these issues where I'm from... Yeah, we've had a handful of rapes, but we generally string up the guy and kick his teeth in before the cops get to him, and generally do the same to those who are abusive. Alas, can't really get away with such a thing around here.

 

[Kaeb]

None of what I said was a joke. To be fair, I was not of sober mind to coherently present a logical argument, but basically what I said I will stand by. So here we go, sober of mind.

First off, just a few official definitions:

Catcall:
-Noun: a shrill whistle or shout of disapproval, typically one made at a public meeting or performance.
-Verb: make a whistle, shout, or comment of a sexual nature to a woman passing by. (Though in my honest opinion, it should say, "to a man or woman passing by")

Harass(ment):
-Noun: subject to aggressive pressure or intimidation.

Sexual Harassment:
-Noun: harassment (typically of a woman) in a workplace, or other professional or social situation, involving the making of unwanted sexual advances or obscene remarks.

Notice the underlined bit. No where in that video were there sexual advances or obscene remarks of sexual nature, just the occasional, "Damn, girl!". Asking for a number is not a sexual advance. Regardless of whether that is the intent, asking a number is just asking a number, and no matter how we dance around the issue there is nothing illegal about it. California might be the exception, but I do not know their state laws.

I'll be honest right here and say I have catcalled before while stuck in traffic in the middle of Seattle, and I'll be damned if I didn't receive far more smiles and laughs than middle fingers. Got a few numbers that way, too, but not through my own seeking. Maybe it was the way I did it, or whatever, but... whatever. I made those girls smile and probably feel comfortable about their body, and that made my day. Take that however you will.

Now, with that said, some of those people that got put on camera were literal creeps, the guys that followed her. That right there is unacceptable. But even then, with that amount of creepiness, it cannot be legally classified as sexual harassment, or even stalking, for that matter. In all honesty, those were the only ones that deserved to be put in the final edits. The guys going all, "Damn, girl," that's how they flirt or whatever in their community, where the women there, in general, like it that way. That brings me to another point... the type of community you're around. If you live close to the ghetto or where gangs reside, not a lot of what's been said here will change.

Myself? I come from the country, and very much a conservative of traditional values, but I've grown up as seeing women as just another human being on the same level pedestal who, down south, is expected to pull their own weight. A lot of the time that's how another woman earned my respect. I recently moved to the city though and a lot of stuff, like this, is still new to me, and it baffles me that there are such issues around the world, that women are propped up and knocked down a level or two. Generally, we don't have a lot of these issues where I'm from... Yeah, we've had a handful of rapes, but we generally string up the guy and kick his teeth in before the cops get to him, and generally do the same to those who are abusive. Alas, can't really get away with such a thing around here.

This whole post is a parody of itself.

Someone frame this.

 

[Bee]

I'm not quoting that whole thing, but please, Derath:

 

[Kaeb]

Someone hold me.

 

[Derath Quinton]

On topic:

"What are you complaining about? We have to run the same distance as you, so it’s equal!"

​

I'd like to point out that this is accurate if we're comparing a guy born through a rich family and a woman of middle class. Otherwise, such a statement is untrue, at least where I come from.

 

[Kaeb]

I'd like to point out that this is accurate if we're comparing a guy born through a rich family and a woman of middle class. Otherwise, such a statement is untrue, at least where I come from.

Go ahead and frame this one too, put it right underneath the last one, but above a picture of a massive bellend.

 

[Derath Quinton]

This whole post is a parody of itself.

Someone frame this.

Please, do tell how it is. From a literal and legal standpoint, everything is accurate.

 

[Kaeb]

None of what I said was a joke.

Well, that's unfortunate.

To be fair, I was not of sober mind to coherently present a logical argument.

...what?

But basically what I said I will stand by. So here we go, sober of mind.

''I was not of a sober mind to coherently present a logical argument, but **** it I'll stick with what I said.''

Again, what?

First off, just a few official definitions:

This should be fun.

Catcall:
-Noun: a shrill whistle or shout of disapproval, typically one made at a public meeting or performance.
-Verb: make a whistle, shout, or comment of a sexual nature to a woman passing by. (Though in my honest opinion, it should say, "to a man or woman passing by")

Annnnnd right off the bat we have some stupidity.

''Let me give you an official definition which actually supports your argument and then change the definition towards the end in order to equate it with my own sheltered views.''

Again, put yourself in the shoes of a woman who is catcalled, objectified and harassed in subtle and not subtle ways every day of her life, and then see if you still believe in this bullshit your spouting, fueled by your clearly willfully narrow perspective.

Harass(ment):
-Noun: subject to aggressive pressure or intimidation.

Yup, constantly convincing a woman that her only value is as an object of observance, affecton and sexual pursuit is a form of harassment, no matter what way you slice it mate.

Sexual Harassment:
-Noun: harassment (typically of a woman) in a workplace, or other professional or social situation, involving the making of unwanted sexual advances or obscene remarks.

Yep.

How are you not equating the daily street harassment against women with violent and sexual undertones and motivations? Are you a sociopath or are you an alien?

Notice the underlined bit.

I do have eyes.

No where in that video were there sexual advances or obscene remarks of sexual nature, just the occasional, "Damn, girl!".

Please read over this sentence again, and take a long hard look at yourself in the mirror.

This is the dumbest thing you've said so far.

Asking for a number is not a sexual advance.

This varies on the social circumstances, but yes, it can be.

Regardless of whether that is the intent, asking a number is just asking a number.

Again, not that simple.

and no matter how we dance around the issue there is nothing illegal about it.

I'm not sure I understand the argument you're making here. In some countries it's legal for citizens to murder homosexuals, are you saying that that is just? Because it's legal?

Political discourse doesn't always match the public consciousness mate. Pretty obvious really, I shouldn't have to point this out to you.

California might be the exception, but I do not know their state laws.

Again, I don't think you want to make this argument mate.

I'll be honest right here and say I have catcalled before while stuck in traffic in the middle of Seattle, and I'll be damned if I didn't receive far more smiles and laughs than middle fingers. [

Right, so given your own personal experience as a man of privilege, you think all women should be thankful of your advances?

Are you really this stupid?

but... whatever. I made those girls smile and probably feel comfortable about their body, and that made my day. Take that however you will.

Wow.

I think you suppose a little too much about the value of your opinion on women's bodies mate. Again, put yourself in their social situation, think about how you would feel if so much value was placed on your body over you as a person, by not just our culture, but your own friends and family. It's psychologically and in many cases, physically damaging. For women and men.

Now, with that said, some of those people that got put on camera were literal creeps, the guys that followed her.

No, you missed the point.

They were all creeps, perpetuating a problematic culture that is anti-woman.

That right there is unacceptable.

Again, no.

It's all unacceptable.

But even then, with that amount of creepiness, it cannot be legally classified as sexual harassment, or even stalking, for that matter.

It's not illegal for me to call you an ugly ****, would you like me to call you that every day for the rest of your life? Make you constant worry about and value yourself based on the level of your ****ishness?

You are missing the point.

The source of their comments and the motivation for their comments is fueled and directed by sexual desire. It is sexual harassment. Deal with it.

In all honesty, those were the only ones that deserved to be put in the final edits. ]

Nope.

The guys going all, "Damn, girl," that's how they flirt or whatever in their community, where the women there, in general, like it that way.

Nope.

That brings me to another point... the type of community you're around. If you live close to the ghetto or where gangs reside, not a lot of what's been said here will change.

It's almost like there's a global culture that perpetuates these problems and we should work to regain the ground tarnished and invaded by this systemic issue, amirite?

Myself? I come from the country, and very much a conservative of traditional values, but I've grown up as seeing women as just another human being on the same level pedestal who, down south, is expected to pull their own weight. A lot of the time that's how another woman earned my respect. I recently moved to the city though and a lot of stuff, like this, is still new to me, and it baffles me that there are such issues around the world, that women are propped up and knocked down a level or two. Generally, we don't have a lot of these issues where I'm from... Yeah, we've had a handful of rapes, but we generally string up the guy and kick his teeth in before the cops get to him, and generally do the same to those who are abusive. Alas, can't really get away with such a thing around here.

And this nonsense, is again, so to the point of self parody and reveals so much truth just by being read out loud that I don't really need to comment about it anymore.



In short, think before you type.

 

[Ser Gregor]

My quick two cents.

While the legitimate issues men face are, by and large, not nearly as systemic or far reaching as the legitimate issues that women face (coming from a historian's perspective, it's almost funny) the MRA 'movement' shouldn't be discredited as a whole just because of that fact. Those who seriously argue for the 'we're fighting the same battle' stance are deluded, but so are people who argue that men aren't facing legitimate issue. Although false rape is the general rallying call of the movement it isn't the most serious problem facing men, it's just a very 'flashy' issue.

Most academics who take MRAs seriously identify race (ie non-white) and poverty's negative effects on the masculine identity and, in turn, how that reflects on society. The 'anti-knowledge' culture of many African-American societies (the entire concept of 'talking' or 'sounding' white), glorification of violence, and so on and so on. The thing is that's not a straightforward issue. Many of the issues women face are much more 'active' and visible. This video is a wonderful example. I don't care how attractive a man you are, you would not have the same experience as this woman walking down NYC.

Simply put, the issues facing men are not easily defined or combated. Issues facing women are much more easily defined. Whether they're more easily tackled then male issues is another question.

 

[Kaeb]

Exactly.

I'm not discrediting the notion that their are issues facing men on a socio-political and socio-economic level, but they pale in comparison to the issues currently and more visibly and obviously solvable issues facing women/transfolk across the entire planet.

 

[Blaxican]

You've got Hollow right where you want him, Quinton.

Now, finish him.

 

[Kaeb]

I'm quivering in my panties.

 

[Ser Gregor]

Exactly.

I'm not discrediting the notion that their are issues facing men on a socio-political and socio-economic level, but they pale in comparison to the issues currently and more visibly and obviously solvable issues facing women/transfolk across the entire planet.

And the hardliners on both sides are just damaging the whole by attacking the other. Some of the most repugnant 'feminazi' behaviour I've ever seen was a massive group of women degrading, mocking, and verbally assaulting (no other way to describe calling someone a "child-****ing rapist" for attending an academic lecture about Men's Rights) those in attendance. The video continued inside the lecture (after it had been moved to a different location) where the women stormed in and yelled to drown out the lecturer (who was a woman, by the way). They had to be removed by campus security. At that point they pulled the fire alarm to stop the lecture. Conversely, some of the most virulent misogyny I've encountered came from self-declared MRAs.

We're not going to have any solutions to the most serious issues until we get over the combative 'us vs. them' gender wars and realize we're two sides of the same coin.

 

[Kaeb]

On the whole, I disagree with you there.

MRA's have a far worse track record when it comes to those kinds of tactics, because that's almost directly what their movement was founded upon, while feminism is on the whole about egalitarianism, but specifically addressing the plight of women/some transfolk so that they can be made to be equal in spectrums wherein men are largely privileged. If you want, we can go more in depth and I can provide examples of this?

It can get pretty ugly/depressing though, but it's a good discussion to have.