Fifth Timeline: Characters

Ols said:

You're assuming that a Jedi is going to treat a "Sith" differently from a "Dark Jedi". It's an issue of nomenclature, nothing more. It doesn't have ANYTHING to do with how serious a threat they are, it just means that rather than thinking they're Sith, they're Dark Jedi. It doesn't matter. In my opinion, the prophecy of the Chosen One makes no sense and is impossible to ever understand, as it's to "bring balance to the force" which can be interpreted in several different ways (most fairly as balance meaning "there is both light and dark"). I must confess, it seems extremely stupid for the Jedi in this era to consider that the prophecy only related to the finite structures of Sith and Jedi, as both light and dark are consistently resurgent irrelevant of that.

But yeah, nomenclature doesn't mean much.



I can only assume that the independent Imperial Knights will have a good reason to be so. Probably something like following an Emperor in exile, or having the foresight to coorindinate their removal of the Sith Emperor...an Imperial Knight might be sworn against the dark side controlling the Empire, but that doesn't mean they have to be stubborn and pig headed in their practice. If they can see they have more chance of success in the long run by immediately withdrawing, regrouping and beginning plan B, then why should they continue with plan A and end up slaughtered?

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You say nomenclature doesn't mean much, I have to disagree. Look at the Jedi Apprentice series where Jinn and Kenobi deal with Jinn's former padawan, the Dark Jedi Xanatos. The Order goes on to deal with several Dark Jedi in the years leading up to the Clone Wars and the acknowledged Return of the Sith at the end of the Naboo Crisis.

The term Dark Jedi was a collective and vague name of dark side practitioners (be they fallen or rogue Jedi) that used Force powers and a lightsaber, but were not always members of a certain organization; whereas the term Sith refers to a definite heritage of cult or ideology. Some Dark Jedi were allied to the Sith or other organizations, while others were loners. Because they were notoriously dangerous, unstable, and treacherous, Dark Jedi seldom formed well-organized groups on their own in order to expand their following or reinforce their strength. The Sith would often seduce Dark Jedi to work for them, without really granting them any knowledge of Sith techniques. Yet most Dark Jedi were willing to serve the Sith, and saw it as a way to further their knowledge of the Force. Like the Sith, they usually used lightsabers with red blades, but were also known to use a wide variety of saber colors.

The Sith, however, was an order that followed their code and studied their history, studied their own skills and techniques, and possessed secrets like Sith alchemy and Midi-chlorian manipulation. Many dark side practitioners, such as Count Dooku, considered the power of a Dark Jedi to be nothing compared to the power of the Sith. Other individuals, like Darth Vader, practiced both Dark Jedi and Sith techniques. According to Dooku, the big difference between Dark Jedi and Sith is that the Sith "lack fear".

The reason why the appearance of Maul is such a big deal is because he is a non-Jedi who was trained in the "Jedi Arts" and exuded the Dark Side.

Point 2: Unless they follow an Emperor into Exile, as they did in the Legacy comics, they are sworn to throw themselves headlong into the fray against the Dark Side force corrupting the Empire, not run away and let the Empire fall into Darkness.

You're over-thinking this, Rom.

Just because the New Jedi Order of this era doesn't view the Sith as real Sith doesn't mean they don't treat them as a serious threat. The Sith believe that they're Sith, and that's all the Jedi need to consider them a serious threat.

You can argue against that all you want, but the fact of the matter is that you're wrong and the Jedi will be treating them as a very, very serious threat.

As for the Imperial Knights, you've read a two paragraph blurb about them. Please don't start making assumptions about factions when the think tank hasn't even assembled yet. Thanks.

@Brandon

Ok.

and with the Imperial Knights I assumed that since it was using the image of the canon Imperial Knights established by the Fel Empire, that they would be upholding the same traditions. My apologies.

Rom said:

You say nomenclature doesn't mean much, I have to disagree. Look at the Jedi Apprentice series where Jinn and Kenobi deal with Jinn's former padawan, the Dark Jedi Xanatos. The Order goes on to deal with several Dark Jedi in the years leading up to the Clone Wars and the acknowledged Return of the Sith at the end of the Naboo Crisis.

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What difference does it make? They deal with the Dark Jedi issues, they attempt to deal with the Sith threat. In this instance the Sith threat happened to be far greater than they envisioned...but only because of Palpatine's influence. The individual was underestimated, not his title.

Rom said:

The term Dark Jedi was a collective and vague name of dark side practitioners (be they fallen or rogue Jedi) that used Force powers and a lightsaber, but were not always members of a certain organization; whereas the term Sith refers to a definite heritage of cult or ideology. Some Dark Jedi were allied to the Sith or other organizations, while others were loners. Because they were notoriously dangerous, unstable, and treacherous, Dark Jedi seldom formed well-organized groups on their own in order to expand their following or reinforce their strength. The Sith would often seduce Dark Jedi to work for them, without really granting them any knowledge of Sith techniques. Yet most Dark Jedi were willing to serve the Sith, and saw it as a way to further their knowledge of the Force. Like the Sith, they usually used lightsabers with red blades, but were also known to use a wide variety of saber colors.

The Sith, however, was an order that followed their code and studied their history, studied their own skills and techniques, and possessed secrets like Sith alchemy and Midi-chlorian manipulation. Many dark side practitioners, such as Count Dooku, considered the power of a Dark Jedi to be nothing compared to the power of the Sith. Other individuals, like Darth Vader, practiced both Dark Jedi and Sith techniques. According to Dooku, the big difference between Dark Jedi and Sith is that the Sith "lack fear".

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The idea is that the Sith are so different and exclusive compared to the Dark Jedi isn't a solid backing here. Before the Sith came out to start with the Dark Jedi threat is all there was. Sith Alchemy was a technique that I'm sure wasn't exclusive to someone bearing a four-letter word, but instead to those who had the means and opportunity to learn it (in practice, yeah that's Sith more often than not, but that doesn't make it an exclusivity). The Midi-chlorian thing...exclusive to Plageius, not the Sith as a whole.

You're assuming that a "Sith" is a greater threat than a "Dark Jedi". At the end of the day a potent force wielder, or group of force wielder's or empire of them who are pointing their lightsabers at the Jedi's throat is a threat to be taken seriously whatever they call themselves.

And to add, the mention in the write-up of the Jedi not believing these Sith to be True Sith has NOTHING to do with underestimation. It's a personal view of these Jedi, that will not make them overconfident or unfit to tackle the threat. At the end of the day this came from a character being planned on the assumption that the case was that the Jedi were not taking this seriously...which isn't the case.

Rom said:

Point 2: Unless they follow an Emperor into Exile, as they did in the Legacy comics, they are sworn to throw themselves headlong into the fray against the Dark Side force corrupting the Empire, not run away and let the Empire fall into Darkness.

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They are sworn to preserve the Empire without corruption. If the choice is die today and fail, or withdraw, regroup and have a chance of success, the latter choice is obviously the better one. Unless you want the think tank to assume that they take the stubborn decisions for no other reason than to be stubborn, in which case all the Imperial Knights will be dead.

Rom said:

@Brandon

Ok.

and with the Imperial Knights I assumed that since it was using the image of the canon Imperial Knights established by the Fel Empire, that they would be upholding the same traditions. My apologies.

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Generally the images we choose don't necessarily reflect tradition, but just the best possible representation of what we're trying to show.

Another thing to consider about the Sith threat -- not only do these Sith believe that they're Sith, making it enough for the Jedi to treat them seriously, but these people who believe that they're Sith have taken over the entire Galactic Empire and are allied with the Chiss Ascendancy, giving them an armed forces that rivals the Galactic Alliance and could quite possibly take over the galaxy.

Whether they call themselves Sith or Poop Heads doesn't really matter. What they're doing constitutes a serious threat in and of itself, and the Jedi know that. The fact that they believe themselves to be Sith only adds onto the threat, because they're dark side users influenced by very, very dangerous teachings.

Also, another reason we added that bit about the Chosen One into the write up was because the founder of the New Jedi Order was the son of the Chosen One. Therefore, we felt it logical to assume that the idea that any Sith after the death of Darth Vader wouldn't be considered real Sith by the Jedi.

As said, though, that doesn't influence how the Jedi perceive the threat of these Sith.

Rom said:

Point 2: Unless they follow an Emperor into Exile, as they did in the Legacy comics, they are sworn to throw themselves headlong into the fray against the Dark Side force corrupting the Empire, not run away and let the Empire fall into Darkness.

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One, the empire could have changed. After all, it's been 800 or so years since the last bit of canon. And on Earth, can you think of one nation that hasn't experienced serious change in their method of government in that period of time?

Also, running away for a little bit is a perfectly legitimate strategy. The 47 Ronin wouldn't have been successful had they immediately attempted to avenge their master. By running away and pretending to become bad samurai, they were able to convince the killer of their master that they were harmless which enabled them to avenge their master.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forty-seven_Ronin

While briefly permitting Sith to take over is a bad thing to do, to immediately fight and lose allowing them to take over permanently would be worse.

Brandon Rhea said:

Also, another reason we added that bit about the Chosen One into the write up was because the founder of the New Jedi Order was the son of the Chosen One. Therefore, we felt it logical to assume that the idea that any Sith after the death of Darth Vader wouldn't be considered real Sith by the Jedi.

As said, though, that doesn't influence how the Jedi perceive the threat of these Sith.

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Also on an IC level, most the jedi of the NJO weren't as ah, traditional as the old jedi order. It would be perfectly reasonable for there to be those with the thought in mind that a prophecy only taken seriously by former old jedi was simply say, misinterpreted, or meant to be a metaphor for what jedi should hope to achieve.

Look at the various factions of christianity. They've only got one book and how many of 'em yell the other one is wrong? Just because it's a stance the "jedi order" takes as an administrative thing, doesn't mean that all jedi believe it to be true. Only that it's the official word of the order in an administrative stance.

Sheogorath said:

Also on an IC level, most the jedi of the NJO weren't as ah, traditional as the old jedi order. It would be perfectly reasonable for there to be those with the thought in mind that a prophecy only taken seriously by former old jedi was simply say, misinterpreted, or meant to be a metaphor for what jedi should hope to achieve.

Look at the various factions of christianity. They've only got one book and how many of 'em yell the other one is wrong? Just because it's a stance the "jedi order" takes as an administrative thing, doesn't mean that all jedi believe it to be true. Only that it's the official word of the order in an administrative stance.

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Indeed.

But really, the question here comes down to how that administrative decision, as you called it, influences how the New Jedi Order as a standing policy perceives the threat of the Sith empire. And that's a question that's HOPEFULLY now been put to bed.

Smothered by a fluffy down pillow, in fact.

Brandon Rhea said:

Indeed.

But really, the question here comes down to how that administrative decision, as you called it, influences how the New Jedi Order as a standing policy perceives the threat of the Sith empire. And that's a question that's HOPEFULLY now been put to bed.

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Aye, I was just thinking since this was the character thread, he was looking for feedback on character building. =P

I was :-) I now know that the initial idea I had wont work. Which means I need a new idea for why he left the Order...

Rom said:

I was :-)

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Sheo: 1
Bac: 0


Game, set, match.


Also, if your looking for reasons for your character to have left a faction, you should probably wait till the factions are finished developing. That's a rather specific thing and you're only working with vague generalities at the moment.

Aye, I've just got a document I'm writing ideas on. Once we know more I'll remove some and add others.

Rom said:

Aye, I've just got a document I'm writing ideas on. Once we know more I'll remove some and add others.

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That's actually a good way to go about it. :)

Thank-you Brandon for the idea.

A new Sith sub-faction for the upcoming timeline:

The Poop Heads!!

Danke!

Yeah, I've currently got 4 saved documents for this upcoming timeline... Basic information for Manwe Tietko (Kushiban Jedi Knight) and Rav Kartegra (the Jedi who leaves the Order) along with a doc for each of them broken up into segments for possible biographical stuff, gear, ship, pet, companions, etc.

Rom said:

Aye, I've just got a document I'm writing ideas on. Once we know more I'll remove some and add others.

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Huh. Does anyone else simply write their ideas in an old archived profile page on-site?

Personally, I hate writing in documents. Too inconvenient.

Well..... I usually write in a leather bound journal.... but it's easier to use a word document since we're on a forum

I showed up to D&D with the journal and got an extra skill point for my attention to Role Play...

In all the EU material that has come out, the NJO treat all the Sith that came after ROTJ as true Sith, not pretenders. Jacen was called a Sith by Luke Skywalker himself, as were the lost tribe of the Sith. Decades later the One Sith were also treated as Sith, not pretenders. No matter how you might feel about the Legacy era books and comics, they are canon material. If the NJO treated those Sith as Sith and not pretenders why would their views change? I know that this timeline is set centuries later and a lot can change in that time but I think there should be a reason why this change in their perception of the Sith took place. If the son of the Chosen one himself treated subsequent Sith as true Sith and not impostors why would later generations of Jedi change their views?

Tyler Corrigan! ACTION GEOLOGIST!!!

Don't **** with his core samples...