The Force Awakens - Thoughts and Reactions (SPOILERS WITHIN)

[Marcus]

But if she turns out to be Luke's daughter, could she have all kinds of Midichlorians and stuff? *runs and hides* But seriously, I agree her ability to fight with the saber in the end, even to a wounded psycho Kylo, was a bit much for me. It still made me giddy and excited and I rooted for her to kick his arse seven ways to Dagobah. But It was a bit of a stretch to me. The ONLY conclusion I came to in the car ride home is that she is the daughter of Luke and has some innate over-sensitive tie to the Force... perhaps even touching and then having the family lightsaber contributed to this new-found skill?

 

[Brandon Rhea]

@Brandon Rhea , I'm pretty sure there was more time to his training then just 5 minutes of rock lifting. He spends days on dagobah, in movie time at least, and while not everything was rigorous training on screen he was having guudance in the difference between light and dark. Additionally, luke cutting his training short meant he didn't know how to do most of what he could do in return of the jedi, and him losing to even the character boba fett, let alone darth vader. It takes 3 years of additional training, or sometime equivocal to that, for luke to get as strong as he did, and even then it took more experience and a close call to the dark side for luke to fully realize the way of the jedi and trust in the force fully, tossing aside his weapon and refusing the temptation to continue to fight.

Of course there was more than 5 minutes of rock lifting - I'm clearly simplifying it to make a point. And the point is that Luke really did not undergo any sort of intensive training. Additionally, Return of the Jedi was 6 months after Empire, not 3 years, and we have no evidence he trained during that time. He went back to Dagobah to complete his training, and was told that his real test was confronting Darth Vader.

The point is, Jedi training is incredibly basic and it's really more about mastering and controlling the power you already have - a power that Luke didn't really summon or realize he had much of because he was constantly doubting himself and the powers of the Force ("I don't believe it" - "That is why you fail"). Rey will now begin whatever training that she will undergo, and it will surely be basic - while her real trials are about the journey that she takes in the rest of this trilogy.

You have to really understand what the original trilogy was getting across in order to understand Rey here, because the writer who wrote most of Luke's journey to becoming a Jedi (Lawrence Kasdan) is the same person who wrote Rey.

Throughout the time period luke was constantly both under powered and battling a draw to the dark side. And while he did preform the miraculous feats like summoning his saber in the ice cave to blowing up the death star, they weren't constant nor something he could really control. With rey, it felt like she had too much control over the force, able to use powers like mental manipulation of others and seemingly fighting herself not to use her powers, the opposite of lukes early problem really. I wouldn't have as big a problem if the technique wasn't depicted as something you had to learn how to do, but that's how it's been shown to function even in the original trilogy, with obi wan and an experienced luke able to do so after learning how to accept the force and learn what it could do.

Rey also doesn't have a lot of power yet, and she too will surely be faced with a draw to the dark side (something Luke encountered in his second film, not his first). Rey was able to perform one mental feat and beat an opponent who was already gravely injured.

But it was thst one thing along with the constant character trait of resisting the force that makes it seem like shes way more skilled then she should be given her presented backstory.

The ability to resist mental manipulation is intrinsic in those who have a strong connection to the Force. Mind tricks, for example, only work on the weak minded. It's a common trope in media that strong-minded people can resist mental manipulation.

Also, something I find odd is that with this movies plot, it reinforces the notion of midichlorians without directly referencing it. Force sensitivity is now officially hereditary, as we have 3 generations of force users, all of which have maintained an incredibly strong connection to the force seemingly from birth. As far as jedi are concerned, blood is a strong source of connection to the force. It also makes it rsther amusing that this wasn't capitalized in the prequels, as it could have easily been the reason for jedi being forbidden from having children. That a thousand generations ago or thousand years ago, jedi were allowed to have kids, but this resulted in a dynasty of force users, some of which grew arrogant and tried to overthrow the republic with the belief that their many lines of powerful force abilites made thsm destined to rule. They could even be banished and served as the origins of the sith, and that ever since jedi have been forbidden from having children to keep another dynasty from arising and falling to arrogance. It's another in the long list of things the prequels screwed up and wasted. But with our current soon to be Dawn of the Republic coming up, I couldn't help but think about it and the implications of hereditary conncetions to the force. I can't help but wonder if they might be plotting for force bloodlines to play a role in the later installments either. It would be interesting if snoke was the product of such a most likely vile research into such things.

That was less about midi-chlorians and more about how Return of the Jedi established that the Force was strong with the Skywalker family.

 

[Noire]

I loathed how they handled the characterization of Finn. He goes from sombrely comforting his dying Stormtrooper comrade, to suddenly deciding to not only flee to the other side of the war, but he has no problem mercilessly killing all his former comrades, and he cheers and makes jokes while he does it. Did the comedy work? Sure most of the time, but it detracted from the previously established elements of his arc.

I noticed this as well. However, I figured he had likely developed a "kill or be killed" mindset as his former comrades were essentially hunting him down with the intention of killing him or taking him back where he was also likely to be eventually executed. So while him making jokes about killing his former comrades may have been a tad bit unrealistic, I don't think him fighting against them necessarily detracted from his arc.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

What the film didn't get across well was that the dead stormtrooper in the beginning was his friend. That character was FN-2003, nicknamed Slip. He got that nickname because he was always slipping up in combat simulations. Finn was the leader of their group of cadets, and he always helped Slip. Finn was reprimanded by Captain Phasma for this and ordered never to help Slip again. So after seeing Slip die and watching innocent people be murdered, he changed sides. So with that in mind, I can see why Finn would have no issue taking the fight back to the First Order. He knows how horrible they are - he's seen it.

That backstory, and some interaction between Finn and Slip beforehand, would have been useful. From what I've heard about the film previously, I think it may have been there and was cut (just like how more information about the relationship between the Republic and Leia/the Resistance was there but also cut).

 

[Cainhurst Crow]

@Brandon Rhea , fair enough points I suppose. Don't really feel like arguing on rey since like I said, they got enough right with her for me to be mostly satisfied. Now, if they end up dropping the ball with the 8th film and don't use It to explore finn, reys, and kylos characters more, as empire did with han, leia, and luke, I'll be disappointed. We got the action focus done and gotten people invested in the characters, now it's time for the character focused and building action film.

Anyway, it's hard to judge because the skywalker family's kinda a bunch of freaks, but they're also all we have to go on for force sensitive families. Anakins some sort of weird force anomaly, but it's unclear if this is whst lets the force pass from one family to another, or if this is just for them having a powerful natural connection.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

I think we can assume that they are going back, to an extent, to the original concept of the Force, which was that anyone could wield it but certain people were more attuned to it and barely anyone took the time to actually learn how to use it. So I prefer the idea that the Skywalker family is simply more connected to the Force, not that their bloodline gives them that power in the first place. That fits with Luke's line in ROTJ too - he doesn't say "My family has the Force," he says "The Force is strong in my family."

Something else I appreciated was how they talked about the Empire and the First Order also being manifestations of the dark side, like what Lor San Tekka said to Kylo: "The First Order rose from the dark side. You did not." It was a subtle but clever way of getting around the fact that there can't technically be Sith anymore because of the prophecy of the Chosen One. It means that even though the Sith are gone, the dark side remains. It just takes on different forms.

It also implied that the Jedi themselves are the balance in the Force. Maz talked about how the shadow of the dark side is always creeping across the galaxy. What defeated the Sith? The Jedi. What defeated the Empire? The Jedi. Who will defeat the First Order? Probably the Jedi. San Tekka said that there can be no balance in the Force without the Jedi, and Leia says that the First Order can't be beaten without Luke, so the implication is that the Jedi are the ones who bring balance to the Force by fighting the dark side.

Which would mean that Anakin's fulfillment of the prophecy was more about ensuring that the Jedi had a chance to return through Luke. It also means that the prophecy wouldn't have been unnecessary if he hadn't been a stupid asshole in the first place, but I digress.

 

[Cainhurst Crow]

But then how would we have gotten the love tragedy, child murdering, and strife in trade route negotiations that feel so uniquely keeping to the spirit of star wars? We cant betray the ben hur and gladiator roots of star wars nor how all the jedi were awful people who didnt care aboht the morals of making a bunch of people bred to do nothing but fight nor were smart enough to see that thd guy whose powers came from a wartime powers might have motivation to continue and perpetuate a war, like star wars was always trying to convey just to make anakin well written. That would go against everything thst makes star wars great again, and pandering, right every clone trooper being boba fett?

I'm sorry. I'm still tired and I remember someone in this thread claimed the prequels felt more star wars then this film. I can't let thst go without 1 sarcastic jab or two.

 

[Phil]

I'm going to leave this here for everyone's enjoyment.

Spoiler: Nope Nope Nope

 

[Jake]

I just realized that at the beginning of this thread I compared SW7 and Firefly, because I seemed to have turned Joss Whedon and JJ Abrams into the same person in my head for awhile there. Oh well.

 

[Dunbar Snackbar]

I thought this was an interesting little snippet on the SW.com page about the finalizer

Spoiler

FINALIZER: The powerful flagship shared by General Hux and Kylo Ren, the dagger-shaped Finalizer is nearly twice the length of an Imperial-era Star Destroyer. The first of the new Resurgent class constructed in violation of treaties with the New Republic, the Finalizer’s heavy weapons are augmented by two starfighter wings, a hundred assault craft and a full legion of stormtroopers. Her turbolasers are more powerful and faster to recharge than Imperial-era weapons, a product of kyber crystals harvested in the Unknown Regions.

 

[VVVVVV]

Kathleen Kennedy has said that the episodic films are the story of the Skywalker family, so odds are she's a Skywalker.

We already have a Skywalker: Ben Solo. He might not have the name but he has the blood. TFA really pushed that with his reverence to his grandfather. Wouldn't be so much interesting for the sequel trilogy ultimately to be his story instead of Rey's? I think so personally. It seems cheap for Rey to be Luke's daughter now that we've already had two father/offspring reveals. It would be too easy and not innovative like the these next two installments are going to need to be. I really hope Rey isn't a Skywalker at all. It would sort of take away from the point you've made elsewhere in the thread, that anyone can use the Force if they put into the effort. Also if she really is just some girl on Jakku, with her own history and her struggles to overcome, that broadens the universe like these new films should be doing.

 

[Jax Vos]

We already have a Skywalker: Ben Solo. He might not have the name but he has the blood. TFA really pushed that with his reverence to his grandfather. Wouldn't be so much interesting for the sequel trilogy ultimately to be his story instead of Rey's? I think so personally. It seems cheap for Rey to be Luke's daughter now that we've already had two father/offspring reveals. It would be too easy and not innovative like the these next two installments are going to need to be. I really hope Rey isn't a Skywalker at all. It would sort of take away from the point you've made elsewhere in the thread, that anyone can use the Force if they put into the effort. Also if she really is just some girl on Jakku, with her own history and her struggles to overcome, that broadens the universe like these new films should be doing.

I'm assuming that by "two father/offspring" reveals you mean Vader/Luke and Han/Kylo. Though I would not consider the Vader/Luke reveal to count in this case as Kylo Ren was kind of hinted at being Han and Lea's son pretty early on vs. Vader being revealed as Anakin Skywalker at the end of the second installment of the original trilogy. But I will say that Rey being Luke's daughter is way too predictable, and in some ways it would be nice if Luke didn't have a child that was abandoned or taken from him, but I have a hard time believing that she can't be a Skywalker or Solo when it's implied that Kylo has tortured others strong in the Force before. So unless she's his younger sister, and the Solos decided to not talk about their supposedly dead daughter, it's likely that she's his cousin.

 

[Green Ranger]

Rey Bridger.

looooooooooool

 

[Marcus]

Rey Jarrus heeeeeeeeee

 

[Oreus]

I think we're all missing the obvious answer here. Rey Rey Binks.

 

[Jax Vos]

Also, something I find odd is that with this movies plot, it reinforces the notion of midichlorians without directly referencing it. Force sensitivity is now officially hereditary, as we have 3 generations of force users, all of which have maintained an incredibly strong connection to the force seemingly from birth. As far as jedi are concerned, blood is a strong source of connection to the force. It also makes it rsther amusing that this wasn't capitalized in the prequels, as it could have easily been the reason for jedi being forbidden from having children. That a thousand generations ago or thousand years ago, jedi were allowed to have kids, but this resulted in a dynasty of force users, some of which grew arrogant and tried to overthrow the republic with the belief that their many lines of powerful force abilites made thsm destined to rule. They could even be banished and served as the origins of the sith, and that ever since jedi have been forbidden from having children to keep another dynasty from arising and falling to arrogance. It's another in the long list of things the prequels screwed up and wasted. But with our current soon to be Dawn of the Republic coming up, I couldn't help but think about it and the implications of hereditary conncetions to the force. I can't help but wonder if they might be plotting for force bloodlines to play a role in the later installments either. It would be interesting if snoke was the product of such a most likely vile research into such things.

See this is something that I like to mess with in my rping and fan fiction. It would make sense for the Sith origin to come out of Force user family lines.

As for Snoke, I would think that he's either a character we've heard about/seen already or a child/descendant of one. If a descendant, my guesses are Darth Bane, Bane's apprentis, Darth Plagueis, possibly Palpatine or (in a huge grasping at straws) Darth Revan if he's made canon. If a child, Palpatine, Plagueis or Dooku as his father. And my guess for him being a character we've at least heard about is firmly set on Plagueis as it is implied that he was working on finding the secret to immortality at the time of his "death."

 

[VVVVVV]

-snip-

When was it implied that Ren had tortured others who were strong in the Force? Even if it was implied, and even if he actually did, were they as strong as Rey? I got the vibe, and this seems to be the general consensus, that Rey possess a lot of potential, potentially more than Luke ever did. Why is it so far fetched to think that someone who wasn't a Skywalker could be this strong in the Force? I don't know why you think the galaxy has to be so small.

 

[Jax Vos]

@VVVVVV
When Kylo said that she was very strong in the Force and Snoke was shocked that she could resist his mind infiltration techniques.

Because Anakin was supposed to be the strongest in the Force there ever was and if someone has the potential to be more powerful than a member of his family it begs the question as to how that would be possible unless that person was also a member of his family.

 

[Topher Ridge]

Yo not trying to derail the current topic here, but I remember there was brief talk about the way Kylo could freeze people with the force. Now I didn't really think much about this and I just thought it was a cool force ability that he was showing off. Then today while I was reading the TV Tropes page for the new movie; in particular the Awesome tagged subpage of the movie; somebody brought up something interesting.

That force power isn't actually new at all. In fact anybody here who has played the KoToR games has seen the power. It's Force Stun/Stasis! So we actually have an instance of this movie taking something from the EU and making it Canon. Not sure if it was intentional or not, but after reading the description Kylo was most definitely using Force Stasis

 

[Logan]

Yo not trying to derail the current topic here, but I remember there was brief talk about the way Kylo could freeze people with the force. Now I didn't really think much about this and I just thought it was a cool force ability that he was showing off. Then today while I was reading the TV Tropes page for the new movie; in particular the Awesome tagged subpage of the movie; somebody brought up something interesting.

That force power isn't actually new at all. In fact anybody here who has played the KoToR games has seen the power. It's Force Stun/Stasis! So we actually have an instance of this movie taking something from the EU and making it Canon. Not sure if it was intentional or not, but after reading the description Kylo was most definitely using Force Stasis

I kind of thought that was obvious, but maybe I just played too much KotOR. Lol