Cortosis/Phrik

[Kiro]

Yeah, I see what you mean, Pros. I just went with the canon sources that states it's nigh indestructible... but then, apparently a canister of phrik survived being blown up along with Alderaan, so hey...

 

[BLADE]

That would be equally redonkulous.

The way I read it when canon says something is indestructible is that it's just the flavorrific way of saying "really, really tough." After all, if it was indestructible (let's say it could survive inside the sun, where core temperatures reach millions of K/C), how would it even be possible to change it chemically? Remember, folks, a lot of what we mean when we say 'destroyed' or 'damaged' refers to chemical changes. That's all that melting, heat transfer, etc. entail.

No worries either way. It's been a while since I read the Mandalorian stuff, and most of it I don't remember, so I was just curious to see if any of the Mandalorian people had any idea of examples like artillery fire or starfighter strafing or whatever.

 

[Kiro]

That would be equally redonkulous.

The way I read it when canon says something is indestructible is that it's just the flavorrific way of saying "really, really tough." After all, if it was indestructible (let's say it could survive inside the sun, where core temperatures reach millions of K/C), how would it even be possible to change it chemically? Remember, folks, a lot of what we mean when we say 'destroyed' or 'damaged' refers to chemical changes. That's all that melting, heat transfer, etc. entail.

No worries either way. It's been a while since I read the Mandalorian stuff, and most of it I don't remember, so I was just curious to see if any of the Mandalorian people had any idea of examples like artillery fire or starfighter strafing or whatever.

Well, as for starfighters, the Mandalorians at the time of the Vong invasion clad their new Basilisk-class starfighter (not to be confused with the war droid) in beskar, as new veins had been exposed by the Vong bombardment of Mandalore. Apparently this made the ships some of the most durable starfighters out there. So obviously, the thicker the layer of beskar, the better it protects, but when you reach starfighter and artillery rounds, yeah, I think even beskar would begin to struggle. I think it would do better than "ordinary" starship grade components, but still take damage.

And despite beskar's strenght as personal armour, while it'd certainly diffuse the heat and explosive qualities of a blaster bolt, the kinetic force would still be imparted on the wearer. Meaning that repeated blaster fire would give serious traumatic damage just from the concussive force of being repeatedly smacked in the chest (or wherever).

 

[Green Ranger]

So, out of curiousity I went on a quick squiz around the internets to find some more information on Mandalorian Iron and see if I can apply some science into it. Again, this is purely for curiousity's sake.

Per Karen Traviss' Star Wars Insider 86 article on the Mandalorians, forged Mandalorian Iron (ie not the ore) is comprised of a carbon cage surrounding the atoms of Mandalorian Iron (whatever they may be). So, basically we're looking at an endohedral fullerene (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fullerene).

When a fullerene is exposed to sufficient heat at standard pressures, it doesn't melt as such - it decomposes into graphite. Once this change is made, the fullerene will not reform, so basically, given enough temperature, an entire plate of Mandalorian iron will basically be completely ruined by even a localized application of heat.

The temperature required for this to happen is around 4027–4427 °C, or 7280–8000 °F with a boiling point of 3727 °C or 6740 °F. So, yeah, it's pretty damn strong once it's forged. Ultimately this doesn't mean much because we don't know the heat points of blaster bolts and lightsabers and whatnot (though I'm sure more scientific-minded people will be able to extrapolate data based on these numbers), but it's interesting nonetheless.

 

[Sleven]

You cite the saberstaffs of Grievous's droids being cut in half as a reason as to why phrik would be weaker, but it simply gives a vague description of their composition and that phrik is a component (ie they aren't pure phrik). It should also be noted that phrikite ore (the stuff phrik is made from) is easy to manipulate until it is combined with tyrdium which officially makes it phrik so phrikite can be used in alloys with relatively little impact on its strength. It is that tyrdium phrikite combo that appears to be the magic number. Furthermore, bes'kar has been damaged on numerous occasions, same as phrik. Boli already cited one for me.

You also cite for me a small layer of phrik protecting a holocron keeping it entirely protected from the Death Star laser on Alderaan. What's the point of bringing up an example that only supports how strong pure refined phrik is? If anything that only adds to our confusion as to which is stronger. But imo would be supporting evidence that phrik is stronger. (Except that I don't buy that either metal is entirely immune to lightsaber attacks even with all this, only that they are both REALLY strong as Prosperos was saying)

During the dual involving a songsteel sword the blade wasn't even scratched, unlike your beloved bes'kar. Furthermore, bes'kar can be smelted by anyone (it's even cited as so). It's the exact composition of metals that the mandos use that makes it so "strong" during the forging process.

The introduction of certain additives during the smelting process served to increase the strength of the natural ore, and Mandalorian metalsmiths guarded the secrets of forging beskar from outsiders

Since songsteel can't actually be smelted, only shaped, we can see clear evidence that it's harder to handle, and tougher than actual bes'kar. Bes'kar doesn't even begin to become strong until [insert secret mando recipe] is used, just like phrikite. Meaning: evidence from canon would support that songsteel is the strongest.

That being said, I still don't buy that any of these are indestructible. All of them if hit enough times by the right stuff will be destroyed. Before that it's just a "we're all really tough metals" dick waving competition.

EDIT: Looks like Boli may have found the secret mando recipe and posted it above.

 

[Green Ranger]

Also interestign to note is this article here: (http://scienceblogs.com/dotphysics/2010/02/02/power-source-for-a-lightsaber/)

Now, it does make a couple of logic leaps, but the important bit is (cutting out the scientific mumbo jumbo, which you can read up in the article link above) this image here:

Without going in to too much detail, it uses a model of the light created from thermal heat to estimate the heat of the lightsaber blade used to cut through the blast doors in The Phantom Menace. The estimated core melting point of 5200 K is actually higher then the sublimination point of a Fullerene, which is roughly 4000 K.

tl;dr be thankful Star Wars isn't based on science, because strictly speaking Mandalorian Iron shouldn't be resistant to the core of a lightsaber blade.

 

[The Kyzer]

Would like to point out quantum-crystalline armor.pretty sure that's the most indestructible ya can get, especially since you can make it out of ANY material (cortosis, phrik). We want lightsaber-proof? You now have lightsaber proof.

 

[BLADE]

I used EU extrapolation and the other movies to get a slightly higher number (8000 K) for lightsaber core temperature, though based on feats, it could be as low as 2000 K and as high as 60000K. Here's the post in question.

Mind you, all that means, as far as we know the workings of beskar, is that we could be talking about some new kind of molecular structure (the ice-nine to fullerene, if you will) which is not more resistant to heat per se (it may have a similar melting point, since anything much higher will get very hard to work with, even assuming SW-style melting tools) but may be such a poor conductor of heat that it delays melting. Of course, even such a property would have limits so beskar's comparative toughness may involve being able to resist a lightsaber for fractions of a second longer than durasteel. Which in combat is pretty useful but not nearly as tough as some may believe. Ditto phrik/whateverimium.

 

[Kiro]

That makes sense enough. In combat, you don't tend to stand around and let the Jedi/Sith press their lightsaber against your chest for several seconds. All you need is Mr. Saberjockey to be distracted for one second by going "Omg, why isn't my ultimate cutting tool of plasma going straight through this guy!?" for you to put a couple of blaster bolts (or a knife) into the guy's abdomen.

 

[Green Ranger]

I used EU extrapolation and the other movies to get a slightly higher number (8000 K) for lightsaber core temperature, though based on feats, it could be as low as 2000 K and as high as 60000K. Here's the post in question.

Mind you, all that means, as far as we know the workings of beskar, is that we could be talking about some new kind of molecular structure (the ice-nine to fullerene, if you will) which is not more resistant to heat per se (it may have a similar melting point, since anything much higher will get very hard to work with, even assuming SW-style melting tools) but may be such a poor conductor of heat that it delays melting. Of course, even such a property would have limits so beskar's comparative toughness may involve being able to resist a lightsaber for fractions of a second longer than durasteel. Which in combat is pretty useful but not nearly as tough as some may believe. Ditto phrik/whateverimium.

I've actually lost the article in question because it was transposed from the magazine onto a forum somewhere and as far as I know there are no official digital copies easily accessible), but the description very clearly indicated that the outright strength of Mandalorian iron in its forged form came from the fullerene carbon structure surrounding the atoms of the ore. Now, I'm definately not scientifically minded (I looked it up completely out of curiousity to see if there was any pseudo-science to analyze at all, and it kind of just snowballed), but the description was basically 'carbon in a cage structure' around whatever molecule makes up Mandalorian iron in ore form. That's about as accurate a description of a fullurene as you can get in layman's terms in my opinion, but you may disagree.

Now canon overrides science here, because it's highly resistant to lightsabers - that much, we can't avoid - so I'm not in any way suggesting we rewrite the book on that one. But I think damaged Mandalrian iron turning to graphite has merits in itself - not so much for balance purposes, but it does give an interesting theory to help explain why when the ore supplies on Mandalore dried up the first time it was such a huge deal.

 

[Kiro]

I've actually lost the article in question because it was transposed from the magazine onto a forum somewhere and as far as I know there are no official digital copies easily accessible), but the description very clearly indicated that the outright strength of Mandalorian iron in its forged form came from the fullerene carbon structure surrounding the atoms of the ore. Now, I'm definately not scientifically minded (I looked it up completely out of curiousity to see if there was any pseudo-science to analyze at all, and it kind of just snowballed), but the description was basically 'carbon in a cage structure' around whatever molecule makes up Mandalorian iron in ore form. That's about as accurate a description of a fullurene as you can get in layman's terms in my opinion, but you may disagree.

Now canon overrides science here, because it's highly resistant to lightsabers - that much, we can't avoid - so I'm not in any way suggesting we rewrite the book on that one. But I think damaged Mandalrian iron turning to graphite has merits in itself - not so much for balance purposes, but it does give an interesting theory to help explain why when the ore supplies on Mandalore dried up the first time it was such a huge deal.

That makes sense, especially considering that one of the tenents of Mandalorian culture is that you must repair and maintain your armour... and that would be sorta pointless if your armour was imperishable by whatever means.

 

[Sleven]

Boli, this may be what you were looking for: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Mandalorians:_People_and_Culture

Since this quote:

In the foundry, carbons were added to the ore to create a molecular cage structure that allowed Mandalorian iron to be lighter than contemporary metals in equal volume, while still retaining its incredible toughness.[7]

From Wookiee, cities that text as its source.

 

[Green Ranger]

That's exactly the passage I was looking for. Thanks!

 

[Sleven]

That's exactly the passage I was looking for. Thanks!

Np

 

[BLADE]

@Boli: Possibly. I am very skeptical of Wookiee (a lazy place full of pseudoscience) though I don't doubt the source material. My main problem is that it's relatively vague, and a "cage-like" structure could be writers (let us remember not a very scientific bunch) taking license with molecular schemata description. Hence my reference to Vonnegut's "ice-nine" (which actually kinda exists nowadays.) Anyhow, if you want to interpret it that way, it works as well, though it doesn't really change my point. A chemical change to graphite (which then melts under a lightsaber) would be congruent with what I noted.

Either way, barring visual evidence (which is what usually moves me to modeling and constructivism), I'm not going to speculate further on beskar. I do think what we've sussed out is a reasonable balancing scheme, even if somewhat arbitrary.

 

[Kiro]

Right, reviving this thread with a question for you all.

A cheap, alternative, synthetic lightsaber resistant material was commonly mentioned, as we seem to lack this... so, I had a thought. What if one were to take Duranium, an extremely durable and light material, with an exceptionally high melting point, that is capable of withstanding a "glancing blow" from a lightsaber, and coat it in a couple of layers of dallorian alloy, another compound naturally resistant to heat, and was used in weapons that were prone to overheating, to keep them from doing exactly that.

Would this not function as a form of cheap "knock-off" phrik/cortosis/beskar?

(Sadly, the melting point of either aren't stated)

 

[BLADE]

Possibly. Another possibly would be some kind of heat-retardant spray or chemical compound (akin to let's say asbestos) which could be easily applied in spray can form to any material. That would really be my holy grail. It'd imbue materials with temporary (but extremely high) resistance to lightsabers/some forms of blaster fire, whilst possibly washing off/being etiolated by other substances.

 

[Colt556]

Possibly. Another possibly would be some kind of heat-retardant spray or chemical compound (akin to let's say asbestos) which could be easily applied in spray can form to any material. That would really be my holy grail. It'd imbue materials with temporary (but extremely high) resistance to lightsabers/some forms of blaster fire, whilst possibly washing off/being etiolated by other substances.

Fun fact, something like that already exists in SW. I've actually put it on the armor I'm going to put up for approval. Not very good against lightsabers due to their sustained hits, but it absorbs blaster fire so it would provide some minor protection against lightsabers. But if you combined it with actual armor that's already got heat absorption properties, makes it even better.

 

[BLADE]

Link? My EU-reading days are long gone, so I'm curious as to what that is.

 

[Colt556]

Link? My EU-reading days are long gone, so I'm curious as to what that is.

I don't really want to because it's fairly obscure for the most part, one of those gems buried in places nobody cares about. But only because you amuse me with all your detailed science, I'll give it to you.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Norris_root

I'm sure those who read everything in the game might remember it.