Cortosis/Phrik

[Colt556]

Y'know, just gonna state this. Your guys' posts are coming off hostile. I'm not "arguing" anything, I'm simply providing an alternative option to cortosis spam. And as I've stated, nowhere have I read on these forums that personal shields are banned. On the contrary, the tech forums state you can use them. Talking is not arguing.

 

[Green Ranger]

http://www.thestarwarsrp.com/forum/showthread.php?30451-Timeline-Technology

Argument = done. This thread is about cortosis and phrik, so get back on topic.

 

[Colt556]

http://www.thestarwarsrp.com/forum/showthread.php?30451-Timeline-Technology

Argument = done. This thread is about cortosis and phrik, so get back on topic.

But... nowhere in that thread does it mention personal shields, at all. The only shields it mentions are starship shields. It mentions personal stealth devices, but not personal shields....

 

[The Derp of Hooves]

Personal shields are banned because, other than wookie stating that they are kinda obsolete and dangerous now and the admins smashing the ban hammer on them (at least i'm pretty sure they did), they were pretty OP'd. As for phrik/cortosis, you're talking about a few thousand people having it out of the countless number of people in the Galaxy... and of those select few, they are restricted in its use.... as long as you can prove that you got it IC or got the OK from an Admin about it I don't really see the problem here :/

 

[Colt556]

Well now I'm legitimately curious about personal shields, since nowhere that I can find does it state they're banned. Quite the opposite, the tech forums expressly mention you can use them.

 

[Green Ranger]

Sweet. I'll add it in when I get home. Happy? Now, for the last time, get back on topic.

 

[The Derp of Hooves]

Except Wookie cannon states that they're dangerous to use now and a lost technology extremely limited and expensive.... Kiro already pointed that out on page three.... back on topic people...

Edit: sneaky ninja boli xD

 

[Denzein]

At the end of the day if a Jedi stabs a man wearing full Beskar plate, the man in the armour is still dead. These materials are resistant, not immune - to hark back to Prospero's example Jedi are just the same as knights from yesteryear. Full plate armour is resistant to cold steel, but the steel will always win in the end as it just takes a different approach to deal with (like stabbing, which is an absurdly simple counter to these incredibly rare and expensive materials). A cortosis alloy sword will eventually break in a prolonged duel with a lightsaber, simply because the other metals that it comprises of Can't take the heat.

I have no problem with them being around, because honestly they don't really do much. No amount of armour saves you from the force, and it can only do so much against a lightsaber. Force users have a massive advantage simply because they are force users, to remove Cortosis and Phrik from the equation would be a minor and unnecessary nerf to everyone else.

Having said that, I still think they should be rare and hard to come by. Rare is the warrior with the means to actually stand up to a Jedi in single combat, and the player demographic should really reflect that. As far as I can see, it does (but I haven't looked at the tech profiles because that's not my thing - is it bad in there?).

 

[Kiro]

At the end of the day if a Jedi stabs a man wearing full Beskar plate, the man in the armour is still dead.

Actually, no. (And this isn't my Mando fangirl screaming in objection) Beskar is the only material in the galaxy that's outright immune to lightsabers.

Mined from beneath the surface of Mandalore, Mandalorian iron was one of the toughest metals known to science. Cherished for its incredible strength and durability, beskar was notable for being able to withstand blows from even a lightsaber,[1] and was commonly thought to be nearly indestructible,[6] making beskar more prized than durasteel or cortosis.[7]

The natural strength of beskar was amplified during the forging process, using techniques developed and closely guarded by Mandalorian metalsmiths.[4]

Otherwise, yes, you're right. Ultrachrome eventually melts, and when ultrachrome melts, the entire thing melts, instead of just a small point. Which would be horrific. Imagine your entire chestplate suddenly turning into liquid metal? *shudders* Cortosis is notoriously fragile in any form that doesn't instantly kill you when you touch it. Phrik is quite durable, but not to the degree of beskar, nor as resistant.

But you are right in the fact that even if you're wearing full beskar, or full phirk, or whatever, you'd still most likely loose to a Jedi or a SIth in the end. Even if you're trained.

 

[Toska]

@Pros

The only balancing issue I have is that people play them as being entirely immune, which stalls a PvP thread and makes it unpleasant for everyone. The issue I was addressing was the cost effectiveness of the metals everyone seems to be using. I agree with your point about a cheap, easy to construct lightsaber-resistant material, and if that was implemented I wouldn't mind in the slightest.

 

[BLADE]

@Kiro: That's not really the point. Even assuming a material that is entirely lightsaber resistant (and I actually agree that it's likely some material --probably even synthetic-- has been developed for it, without going into beskar silliness) or at least so resistant as to be practically immune in a battle context, it's pretty much impossible to develop armor that doesn't have weak spots. For example, your nice beskar spauldrons protect your shoulders, right? But what about your armpits, where your maxillary arteries are?

See my point? All that the advent of lightsaber resistant armor really means is that Jedi/Sith need to develop different fighting styles, less based around slashes and zone control and based around leverage, positioning, and maximizing stabbing opportunities.

Mind you, this is assuming that beskar still doesn't conduct any heat at all, or is a really poor conductor of heat, as I've done the math before, and lightsabers burn upwards of ~6000 K. So a prolonged lightsaber battle with someone in "immune" armor could also involve nasty heat transfer and burns to that person. Which when added to the fact that armor makes you overheat faster also adds another wrinkle to the supposed tactical advantage.

That's why I don't think it's a big deal if everyone has trololol lightsaber-proof armor, even if I disdain that kind of gamesmanship and excess (my characters all wear basic anti-shrapnel armor.)

@Toska: Well yeah. People are stupid assholes. Report them. Insofar as "immune" armor exists, I think my reading is fairly accurate. The only real problem with "immune" armor right now is the artificial supply bottlenecks that the staff has implemented. I can understand why they did it, and it makes sense that ceteris paribus a Lord or Master of the Whatsits will have better armor than some mook, but the qualitative difference should be nerfed, IMHO, with the mook getting much better median armor, and the Lord or Master getting some slight clarifications on the limits of his or her armor.

To me, it'd be the difference between chain mail and plate mail, rather than getting into some of the very ornate armors that well...

 

[Kiro]

Well Prosp, I did say that even with Beskar, you'd still most likely loose to a decently trained Jedi or a Sith, and I'm agreeing with everything else you're saying. I just wanted to point out that beskar doesn't really have the weakness that Denezien pointed out, s'all. But again, rare, expensive, gotta be highly valued member of the Mandos for it. Which makes it the most regulated lightsaber-resistant material out there. Though, Wookiee doesn't state anything in regards to beskar's conductivity to energy or heat.

See my point? All that the advent of lightsaber resistant armor really means is that Jedi/Sith need to develop different fighting styles, less based around slashes and zone control and based around leverage, positioning, and maximizing stabbing opportunities.

Makashi, anyone?

 

[Toska]

@Pros: You're making me swoon over the idea of inexpensive, mass produced, lightsaber-resistant materials. Orange ballistic jumpsuits, anyone?

 

[Colt556]

The overheating thing isn't actually a problem with armor in SW, unless you're using the absolute lowest possible quality of "armor" available. Which, at that point, isn't so much armor as it is metal plates strapped to your body. Proper armor sets have various methods of keeping you cool, such as insulated bodygloves and temperature control. For example, stormtrooper armor had temperature control and could thus cool down the trooper in hotter environments. That would also counteract a lightsaber. Also, often armor isn't actually made out of metal at all. Again, stormtrooper armor was essentially super space plastic. So it wouldn't overheat as easily.

Really, there would be no downside to have a full set of saber-immune armor. But it wouldn't be overpowered, either. Forcers have a LOT of advantages, being unable to wildly slash with reckless abandon shouldn't make them worthless. And if it does, you're a terrible forcer anyways. As has been said, armor isn't, and never can be perfectly sealed. Your joints will always be vulnerable. Makes it harder to kill you with a saber, but still manageable. A skilled soldier in good armor shouldn't be easy to kill anyways. The disparity between forcers and normal folks isn't as large as some stories and general RP attitude like to make it seem.

 

[BLADE]

@Colt: True. But remember the double-edged sword. Something that can resist a lightsaber (a poor conductor of heat in other words) is going to take a good deal of energy to keep properly insulated and cooled. Not bulky, necessarily by SW standards, but there is going to be some sort of internal generator/cooling element that will be vulnerable to attack.

To say nothing of the fact that the added weight will raise your core temperature anyhow, chip away at your stamina, etc. It's not going to be uncomfortable by any means, but it is going to be more fatiguing than not wearing armor, or wearing lighter armor.

That's what I was specifically referring to.

Regular armor (like some sort of plasticene material which can resist grazing blaster bolts, and shrapnel) is not going to really have that issue and should be lightweight, cheap, durable, and versatile. Decently lightsaber resistant armor as well. It's where we start getting into what are essentially powered-armors, with reinforced joints, etc. that we start seeing some real tactical trade-offs.

And to be clear, it's really up to the RPer. A full suit of light-saber resistant material, as vulnerable as it would be in the joints, to thrusts, half-swording, etc. has its tactical advantages and disadvantages. Paradoxically and rather curiously, for example. the current advantage that saberstaves and dual swords have over single swords would not apply against such a suit; you'd be arguably better off with a single saber. Or with a different weapon entirely, of course.

@Kiro: I understood. I was just pointing out some different stuff. The conductivity is more of an academic question since if you're a NEEERRDDDDlinger like me, you wanna know this stuff. The rest of you can just be happy with a "resistant" descriptor. It might be something to think about though. Over time, even a "resistant" material, or a very poor conductor of heat might experience gradient temperature increase due to prolonged contact with a lightsaber. Those things burn at extremely hot temperatures.

Of course, even that brings up the question of how exactly Beskar is smelted, since it's hard to think of industrial materials (plasma torches or whatever equivalent SW has) that could burn hotter in industrial applications than a lightsaber. I don't doubt that there is, given the industrial capacities of the universe, and how old lightsabers are --but-- it is a bit curious considering how often I read/hear about Mandalorians or Sith or Jedi essentially smelting their armor in an artisanal smithy.

Could it be that even a family hearth (essentially) can generate more heat than a lightsaber? Now that might be an interesting way to look at things. Lightsabers are really outdated and inefficient weapons made to look good by the prowess of their users.

 

[Sleven]

Actually, no. (And this isn't my Mando fangirl screaming in objection) Beskar is the only material in the galaxy that's outright immune to lightsabers.

Otherwise, yes, you're right. Ultrachrome eventually melts, and when ultrachrome melts, the entire thing melts, instead of just a small point. Which would be horrific. Imagine your entire chestplate suddenly turning into liquid metal? *shudders* Cortosis is notoriously fragile in any form that doesn't instantly kill you when you touch it. Phrik is quite durable, but not to the degree of beskar, nor as resistant.

But you are right in the fact that even if you're wearing full beskar, or full phirk, or whatever, you'd still most likely loose to a Jedi or a SIth in the end. Even if you're trained.

I would just like to point out that songsteel and phrik have the same level of "immunity" (if you can even truly call it "immune") as Bes'kar. There is no where in the description of Bes'kar (or any place in canon or wiki material for that matter) where it states that Bes'kar is stronger or more durable than songsteel or phrik. The only real difference here is that songsteel has some supposedly extraordinarily arduous smelting process that really only makes it viable to be forged into thinner weapons and not armors. The fact stands that Bes'kar faces competition from other metals. Just because it has been expanded upon further than most other "unique" metals by its canon sources doesn't mean it is stronger than them. In fact, the very quote you pulled from wiki only lists metals in comparison that have been explicitly stated to be weaker. It doesn't mention songsteel or phrik for a reason: the two metals are just as strong, if not stronger (since we don't have any canon comparisons). If I were to even champion a metal as "the strongest" I would likely lean towards the songsteel since for the most part weapons have to be made out of shards of it, and even those can only be tamed slightly, whereas phrik and bes'kar are supposedly fully malleable.

Other than that I like where this discussion is going.

 

[Dóiteán]

I've noticed that most don't bother with lightsaber resistant materials. Of the few I've seen, it's mainly sith, bounty Hunters, and Mandalorians that I've seen a few members having some phrik, cortosis, or beskar.

I personally went a different route by using force empower (It makes my Nightsister's spear lightsaber resistant without being made of the metals resistant to lightsabers).

 

[Kiro]

I would just like to point out that songsteel and phrik have the same level of "immunity" (if you can even truly call it "immune") as Bes'kar. There is no where in the description of Bes'kar (or any place in canon or wiki material for that matter) where it states that Bes'kar is stronger or more durable than songsteel or phrik. The only real difference here is that songsteel has some supposedly extraordinarily arduous smelting process that really only makes it viable to be forged into thinner weapons and not armors. The fact stands that Bes'kar faces competition from other metals. Just because it has been expanded upon further than most other "unique" metals by its canon sources doesn't mean it is stronger than them. In fact, the very quote you pulled from wiki only lists metals in comparison that have been explicitly stated to be weaker. It doesn't mention songsteel or phrik for a reason: the two metals are just as strong, if not stronger (since we don't have any canon comparisons). If I were to even champion a metal as "the strongest" I would likely lean towards the songsteel since for the most part weapons have to be made out of shards of it, and even those can only be tamed slightly, whereas phrik and bes'kar are supposedly fully malleable.

Other than that I like where this discussion is going.

First off, it's not "bes'kar". It's just beskar.

And no, songsteel and phrik don't match up to beskar. Songsteel and phrik aren't indestructible. Beskar is. The saberstaffs of Grievous' guards have been shown in canon to break. Those were forged from phrik. Beskar has never been shown to break, or take any form of damage.

Secondly, your note of songsteel? Songsteel is, if possible, even rarer than beskar, and certainly more expensive. Also, I don't really get what you mean by "taming" a weapon. Songsteel isn't sentient or alive or anything. Yes, it's very hard to work with, but beskar is impossible to craft with, unless you know the intensely secretive Mandalorian process.

*snip*

Well, it's stated in the Wookieepedia article that beskar's strenght is increased through secret methods employed by Mandalorian metalsmiths. So it's quite likely that before this process, beskar has a lower melting/malleable temperature. Especially considering how these artisan level metalsmiths are capable of turning beskar into anything from armour plates to a foam or a transparent film.

After all, canon and Wookieepedia frequently states that the attempts of non-Mandalorians to craft beskar have all ended up with inferior products and lower quality, lacking it's strenght and lightsaber resistance. This leads me to think there's secret chemical recepies involved in the forging of combat-grade beskar.

 

[BLADE]

Bit of a logical leap there, K. Suppose I've never suffered a broken bone or contusion in my life. By your logic, I am indestructible. See what I mean?

Beskar can obviously be damaged by... let's say starfighter grade weaponry. Or heavily mounted artillery. Or a very heavy repeater blaster turret. Right? A different answer to that would definitely bring up questions of both balance and just how the heck you smelt something that isn't indestructible per se, but that is so resistant to chemical change that it might as well be unusable.

It does, sound, however, like it is relatively less damageable than phrik/cortosis, but Sleven is still correct when he notes that we don't really know that much about the comparative resistivity and other properties of these materials pace all tactical scenarios involving lightsabers and force users.

tl;dr Indestructible may be polysemous, or at least as much a matter of semantics as what we have or have not seen.

 

[Green Ranger]

The door of Freedon Nadd's tomb were scratched by a lightsaber - not by much, but they were still damaged. So Mandalorian iron isn't strictly immune. I'd also have to listen to the radio drama to find out if it was a glancing strike or a stab to gauge it more accurately, but yeah, just a quick FYI.