Request for another Admin Feedback Thread

[Dmitri]

To be honest though, about that entire whole stupid situation, the animosity here on the site started because of Skype Echo Chambers. At least, here on the site, we're not constricted to our chambers. We get our opinions out in the world, and have to substantiate them. It's the nature of debate, and while I can't guarantee my suggestion would be without strife, I think, at the least, people will feel more encouraged to move from their own groupthoughts to a place where they can feel like they're being acknowledged by the collective.

Then wouldn't that make it even more important to use the Bugs, Reports, etc. board to address every individual subject? A feedback thread for each person would clutter just as easily as one thread for everyone. By having a thread per issue, it allows for better staying on topic and not get cluttered. Us putting up the "Admin Review Sub-Board" doesn't magically mean "This is the only feedback we will ever consider, and won't change unless something is said here". We are constantly looking at feedback. Sometimes it may not appear so, because we will not change a stance on a topic just because some people didn't like the ruling. We're not unbanning Prospero because many people did a hashtag profile post and cluttered that last night. Nor would we change a ruling on a battle because people spoke up against it (assuming it's only disagreement; if counter-points can be made and leads to a difference in outcome, we are not above changing it if it warrants it). It appears that there is an argument (and it's a poor word choice, but I can't think of a more accurate word at the time, as I do not believe you are trying to be rude or anything) for there to be an Admin Feedback Review with the pomp and circumstance, when people can always and any time post their worries, feedback, reviews, opinions, etc. in a civilized and mature manner.

EDIT: @Outlander I apologize for mistaking you for @Prudence

 

[Brandon Rhea]

To be honest though, about that entire whole stupid situation, the animosity here on the site started because of Skype Echo Chambers. At least, here on the site, we're not constricted to our chambers. We get our opinions out in the world, and have to substantiate them. It's the nature of debate, and while I can't guarantee my suggestion would be without strife, I think, at the least, people will feel more encouraged to move from their own groupthoughts to a place where they can feel like they're being acknowledged by the collective.

This is a good point, and worthy of more consideration. If I was to be convinced of this idea, this post is what will do.

 

[Outlander]

Then wouldn't that make it even more important to use the Bugs, Reports, etc. board to address every individual subject? A feedback thread for each person would clutter just as easily as one thread for everyone. By having a thread per issue, it allows for better staying on topic and not get cluttered. Us putting up the "Admin Review Sub-Board" doesn't magically mean "This is the only feedback we will ever consider, and won't change unless something is said here". We are constantly looking at feedback. Sometimes it may not appear so, because we will not change a stance on a topic just because some people didn't like the ruling. We're not unbanning Prospero because many people did a hashtag profile post and cluttered that last night. Nor would we change a ruling on a battle because people spoke up against it (assuming it's only disagreement; if counter-points can be made and leads to a difference in outcome, we are not above changing it if it warrants it). It appears that there is an argument (and it's a poor word choice, but I can't think of a more accurate word at the time, as I do not believe you are trying to be rude or anything) for there to be an Admin Feedback Review with the pomp and circumstance, when people can always and any time post their worries, feedback, reviews, opinions, etc. in a civilized and mature manner.

Just real quick, a few things here.

I'm not talking about an admin review sub board. I'm not talking about Pros banning. I'm not talking about rulings or policies or anything.

I'm talking about everything. I'm talking about the real abstract issues we're facing on the site. The issues we all think about and have trouble quantifying. The issues lying veiled beneath the surface. Yes, rulings and bans are parts of this abstraction, but they're a symptom, not a cause. The real issue runs deeper than this. And that's what i'm talking about. I'm talking about a change in dynamics; where we can really sit down and talk about everything. That's the only real way I can see us as a whole mending these fissures and working on the long process of change.

 

[Outlander]

This is a good point, and worthy of more consideration. If I was to be convinced of this idea, this post is what will do.

Thank you. I really appreciate you and the other admins considering this. Everything i've said here is because I really love the community here, and I realize that, outside of my own blinders and biases, we need to come together and fix these issues. And I think we can really do it, together.

 

[Dmitri]

Just real quick, a few things here.

I'm not talking about an admin review sub board. I'm not talking about Pros banning. I'm not talking about rulings or policies or anything.

I'm talking about everything. I'm talking about the real abstract issues we're facing on the site. The issues we all think about and have trouble quantifying. The issues lying veiled beneath the surface. Yes, rulings and bans are parts of this abstraction, but they're a symptom, not a cause. The real issue runs deeper than this. And that's what i'm talking about. I'm talking about a change in dynamics; where we can really sit down and talk about everything. That's the only real way I can see us as a whole mending these fissures and working on the long process of change.

Most of my points I generally direct to the community at large, not just to you, so that's why, even though you've noted you aren't talking about those points, I addressed them.

I'll also say this: If you genuinely feel this why, why are you not posting them here? Instead of talking about talking about how to talk about the issues, why not just post how and why you feel this way. Feeling we're "not a part of the community" and you abstractly feel we're not doing something doesn't give us, the admins, a genuine look at what you are talking about, why they're happening, and how.

 

[Outlander]

Most of my points I generally direct to the community at large, not just to you, so that's why, even though you've noted you aren't talking about those points, I addressed them.

I'll also say this: If you genuinely feel this why, why are you not posting them here? Instead of talking about talking about how to talk about the issues, why not just post how and why you feel this way. Feeling we're "not a part of the community" and you abstractly feel we're not doing something doesn't give us, the admins, a genuine look at what you are talking about, why they're happening, and how.

I know i sent something similar to you, but i'll put it out here for the community to see.

I'm talking in abstracts because pinpointing the roots of this issue is HARD. It's a mentality made up over years and transferred across the membership to varying degrees. If someone where to ask me why I didn't like X admin, I probably couldn't give much of an answer outside a general feeling, or just that I plain didn't. It's akin to a deep societal issue, and I think it'll take a long time to fix just like one of those deep seeded mentalities.

I'm sure I could point to many symptoms of this. But I feel like I would never really get to the heart of the issue.

 

[Prudence]

kek

But, on a serious note, I can somewhat attest to this with Prudence. I used to have real animosity towards him. This was, partially, amplified by my own echo chamber (Despite cool people like @M4TT , @Diva Tumi , and @Shalken / @Vosrik trying to make me see reason), and it just made things infinitely worse. But, when I actually sat down in a skype call and talked to him and others outside my echo chamber, I lost that animosity and reconciled. Now, we're chill, and can look at the past and laugh, all because we ventured beyond our party lines and met on neutral ground with new peers.

I hit report instead of like by accident. This speaks to our relationship well.

 

[Green Ranger]

Thank you. I really appreciate you and the other admins considering this. Everything i've said here is because I really love the community here, and I realize that, outside of my own blinders and biases, we need to come together and fix these issues. And I think we can really do it, together.

 

[Jessica Cloud]

@Outlander

Help me solve a few of these:

• Q - "I feel like black cats are secretly all witches in disguise. How should I behave around black cats?"
• Q - "I feel like pizza is making me fat. How should I get America to stop eating pizza?"
• Q - "I feel like Ron is thinking about me. How can I get Ron to stop thinking?"
• Q - "I feel like grass is making the environment better. How can we get Congress to enact real change?"

Now. Look at your feelings. Now look back at me. Now look at your feelings. Now look at back at me. Look at your feelings. Now look back at me. Notice something?

The world is not responsible for your feelings.

Likewise. The Staff of this website, is not responsible, for our feelings. We are.

Last one;

• Q - "Who is responsible for our feelings?"

We are.

 

[Outlander]

@Outlander

Help me solve a few of these:

• Q - "I feel like black cats are secretly all witches in disguise. How should I behave around black cats?"
• Q - "I feel like pizza is making me fat. How should I get America to stop eating pizza?"
• Q - "I feel like Ron is thinking about me. How can I get Ron to stop thinking?"
• Q - "I feel like grass is making the environment better. How can we get Congress to enact real change?"

Now. Look at your feelings. Now look back at me. Now look at your feelings. Now look at back at me. Look at your feelings. Now look back at me. Notice something?

The world is not responsible for your feelings.

Likewise. The Staff of this website, is not responsible, for our feelings. We are.

Last one;

• Q - "Who is responsible for our feelings?"

We are.

To be honest, I don't think that's a very good mentality to have, at least for running a community like this one. I see what your point is, don't get me wrong. You feel that the admins aren't beholden to members who have negative opinions towards them. But i'd argue that's wrong, at least on a macro sense. Yes, the admins don't really need to deal with them on an individual micro level just because they don't like them. But, concerning the site's health as a whole, or the macro level, it's something of a necessary evil. Because, the larger player base has resentment towards the admins, the more and more unstable things become. Even if all their feelings towards them are based on nightmares and boogeymen, they need to be rectified on the site wide level.

In short, the more people with resentment towards the admins that the admins don't try to rectify, the wider that resentment spreads.

 

[Jessica Cloud]

@Outlander

I do not 'feel' that the Admins are not beholden to members who have negative opinions about them. No.

I do 'feel' that the Admins are not beholden to members opinions. Yes.

Likewise, I also 'feel', (and expect,) that Admins will continue to act magnificently in spite of other people, having opinions.

 

[Outlander]

@Outlander

I do not 'feel' that the Admins are not beholden to members who have negative opinions about them. No.

I do 'feel' that the Admins are not beholden to members opinions. Yes.

Likewise, I also 'feel', (and expect,) that Admins will continue to act magnificently in spite of other people, having opinions.

Sorry for mis-quantifying your argument then.

I still disagree with that. A site isn't really anything without its membership, and member thoughts as a whole should be taken into account in the admin process. No, the members aren't always right, but they're the ones who will be acting within these boundaries the admins set.

 

[Jessica Cloud]

@Outlander

Do the Admins of this website ignore their member base?
Are there no ways the member base can contact the Admins to speak with them?
Who is responsible for my feelings?

 

[Brandon Rhea]

Jessica, this thread has been pretty productive, and while I'm going to assume you're trying to be helpful, your comments are coming across as trollish and inflammatory. Please find another way to make your argument because being flippant is not the right way to do.

 

[Outlander]

This was a reply to @Jessica Cloud , but I removed it in light of @Brandon Rhea 's comment.

 

[Jessica Cloud]

@Brandon Rhea

Oh. Sorry. I guess I misunderstood the nature of this thread. To quote Outlander himself,

"...We get our opinions out in the world, and have to substantiate them. It's the nature of debate, and while I can't guarantee my suggestion would be without strife, I think, at the least, people will feel more encouraged to move from their own groupthoughts to a place where they can feel like they're being acknowledged by the collective."

I was attempting to debate Outlander as to who holds the responsibility of our own personal feelings and actions taken as members of a community. Us. The Admins. Or is there a third option in there somewhere. And I felt that this thread was the perfect place for such a debate and, given Outlanders previous comments, I felt he was perfect for the invitation. I guess I was wrong. My bad. I pulled us off-topic.

Sry everybody. My bad. :)

 

[Outlander]

@Brandon Rhea

Oh. Sorry. I guess I misunderstood the nature of this thread. To quote Outlander himself,

"...We get our opinions out in the world, and have to substantiate them. It's the nature of debate, and while I can't guarantee my suggestion would be without strife, I think, at the least, people will feel more encouraged to move from their own groupthoughts to a place where they can feel like they're being acknowledged by the collective."

I was attempting to debate Outlander as to who holds the responsibility of our own personal feelings and actions taken as members of a community. Us. The Admins. Or is there a third option in there somewhere. And I felt that this thread was the perfect place for such a debate and, given Outlanders previous comments, I felt he was perfect for the invitation. I guess I was wrong. My bad. I pulled us off-topic.

Sry everybody. My bad. :)

For the record, I think your arguments where fine. You brought up some valid points, and I had to work to backup my own thoughts. That's fine, and more than welcome. I think the issue was in your tone/phrasing. No worries, it was a simple mistake.

 

[Jessica Cloud]

Thanks @Outlander

I've sent you a PM to express my apologizes in private. Thanks for speaking up and making a difference. Cheers. :D

 

[Dmitri]

To be honest, I don't think that's a very good mentality to have, at least for running a community like this one. I see what your point is, don't get me wrong. You feel that the admins aren't beholden to members who have negative opinions towards them. But i'd argue that's wrong, at least on a macro sense. Yes, the admins don't really need to deal with them on an individual micro level just because they don't like them. But, concerning the site's health as a whole, or the macro level, it's something of a necessary evil. Because, the larger player base has resentment towards the admins, the more and more unstable things become. Even if all their feelings towards them are based on nightmares and boogeymen, they need to be rectified on the site wide level.

In short, the more people with resentment towards the admins that the admins don't try to rectify, the wider that resentment spreads.

You and a couple others have mentioned similar things before (and I apologize if this comes off as confrontational; it's not meant to be, and simply me asking point blank without beating around the brush), so I'll ask you this: What do you believe can be done to help with this reported resentment towards the admins? I've not been seeing too many specifics, so with guidance of where people are seeing the problems, we don't know where to go from there. How are we supposed to micro and macro manage the site? (Note that I stand with Boli and Brandon that if we were to create some Admin Feedback Review, unless evidence is shown here where criticism will be in a civilized and mature manner, will not be productive and would be a case of dogpiling, which still does not prevent members from PMing their worries and concerns and feedbacks to members directly).

 

[Outlander]

You and a couple others have mentioned similar things before (and I apologize if this comes off as confrontational; it's not meant to be, and simply me asking point blank without beating around the brush), so I'll ask you this: What do you believe can be done to help with this reported resentment towards the admins? I've not been seeing too many specifics, so with guidance of where people are seeing the problems, we don't know where to go from there. How are we supposed to micro and macro manage the site?

Hmm. OK, lemme try to get all my thoughts down coherently:

Micro/Person-to-person

• Attempt, as an admin team, to participate in the storylines of individual players or groups. Not organizing them, but just acting as normal Rprs in them. For example, @Dmitri has his misfits storyline, but that is entirely his creation. I'm instead suggesting he participate in, say, the Exchange's dirty dealings, or even down another level to individual characters, like the current drastic character change @Poop Fairy 's character is experiencing. Of course this wouldn't be required (the admins being regular people with RP urges like everyone else), but it would be nice to keep in mind.

To be honest, I think your Micro is fine at the moment. Its the large stuff, the macro, that's the big issue. Others may have more things to add though, so i'll leave that to them.

Macro/Overall Membership

• Participation in factions, both Indie and Main. I think this could potentially go a long way. For one, what kind of message would it send to the player base that the Admins are helping a faction run missions, or by putting one of their characters into an Indie? It helps ground them, making it feel like the Admins have just as many stakes in events as they do.
• Having a continuous "Open Communication Thread" where the membership and administration can freely talk about issues in a reasonable matter without fear of repercussion or reprisal. Similar to how the rules work on the Current Events board, i'm adamant that this will work better than direct messaging for a number of reasons. First, anything posted there will be public, so people can see what the other members are thinking, what issues have come up, and what people think about those issues. Not having a possible warning or infraction, even if the topic wouldn't warrant one anyways, means that we can have frank discussions without dealing with any issues of superiority in the site hierarchy. Finally, I think this would do wonders uniting the community again. Having a place where the admins can participate in this sort of open discussion as members would start to break down this resentment that's built up.
• Add additional moderators. With more people handling approvals, rulings, etc, the Admins are free to become more active in the community as well as becoming less stressed in general. This serves a dual purpose as well. While approvals and rulings are completed quicker, promoting RP, they also serve as intermediaries between the groups of the Admins and the Members, being a middle ground that can, hopefully, see both sides and act to facilitate good relations and understandings.
• Be more open with admin decisions. Members want to know the process where things are approved, changes are pushed through or denied, and why people are banned and what the process is. I'm aware that this conflicts with the current policy of not talking about bans. But, posting these proceedings openly would take the mystery out of it all as well as giving members a clearer picture to base opinions on while cutting speculation off at the head.

Whew! That should be everything. I'll post more if anything else comes to mind, but that's a good chunk to chew on for the time being.

(and you don't come off as standoffish Dmitri-Sama < 3)