Request for another Admin Feedback Thread

[Green Ranger]

Outlander, I've said several times now that adding more moderators won't result in admins RPing more. This is because I've seen firsthand that it doesn't work that way, due in part to how the staff operate through a lot of group discussion and collaboration, but also due to the fact that with more heads it can sometimes create inefficiencies and weaker links. Finally, there's always more admin stuff to do - the more active and present the admin presence is, the more work we wind for ourselves. There's never any real relief because there's always something else that needs doing, something else that needs our opinion or attention. The amount of work for admins is relentless and adjusts accordingly to how many of us there are, so it's always the same amount of work and the same rules and restrictions we have imposed upon ourself to prevent accusations of bias, that prevent us from being more active.

A compromised, perfect solution of sunshine and daisies, like I said, simply doesn't exist.

EDIT: I really can't reiterate this point anymore than I already have without going around in circles, so I'm gonna bow out for now.

 

[Outlander]

Outlander, I've said several times now that adding more moderators won't result in admins RPing more. This is because I've seen firsthand that it doesn't work that way, due in part to how the staff operate through a lot of group discussion and collaboration, but also due to the fact that with more heads it can sometimes create inefficiencies and weaker links. Finally, there's always more admin stuff to do - the more active and present the admin presence is, the more work we wind for ourselves. There's never any real relief because there's always something else that needs doing, something else that needs our opinion or attention. The amount of work for admins is relentless and adjusts accordingly to how many of us there are, so it's always the same amount of work and the same rules and restrictions we have imposed upon ourself to prevent accusations of bias, that prevent us from being more active.

A compromised, perfect solution of sunshine and daisies, like I said, simply doesn't exist.

If everything you where saying was completely true, Kiro wouldn't be a moderator. If she wasn't, I'd see where you where coming from, but as it stands, I see no conceivable reason why not.

But i'm attempting to move on to the other suggestions I made. I understand we can't make significant changes overnight, and I absolutely understand that. But, I think something needs to be done. So, if you don't see merit in this solution, we can move on to another one.

 

[Arcangel]

So. I normally don't contribute to these things, but i would like to echo @Outlander s point and bring a bit more of specificity to it.

Now i am all for more community moderators. But i am of the opinion that we specifically need one or more battle moderators. Lets face it, with the Manaan rules, more and more threads are having to be ruled on mid thread due to disputes or have to be ended in a ruling due to the 2 week time limit. Now that the Main faction war story is finally kicking into gear, the amount of threads that are going to ruling is... to be honest, somewhat ridiculous. Which brings me to my point.

One of two things needs to happen.

A. Loosen up the Manaan rules a little bit. Not a whole lot, they should still apply in full for main battles, but the expectation of 2-3 weeks of pvp for open mission threads and such when they go to pvp is somewhat overwhelming. It makes participating in such threads seem like even more work than pvp normally does, and i think perpetuates the mentality we have been seeing lately of players going for quick kills in an attempt to win the thread quickly.

B. "Hire" One or more Battle Moderators. I think its pretty easy for everyone to see that @GABA GABA HEY is absolutely swamped with work trying to rule on threads. As i have stated, with the new PvP rules, more and more threads are having to end in rulings. I think that having a few Battle Moderators would help spread the work of making all these rulings around. On top of that, GABA is one of the few Admins who actively RPs and tries to get involved in faction stuff. Not to say that other admins should RP more, because that is entirely up to their individual schedules and the like, but the fact that GABA is the only Admin who really does PvP rulings also prevents her from participating in faction related missions and PvP, due to conflict of interest when rulings have to be made on threads or related threads she is participating in.

Thats all i have for now, sorry for the jumbled mess of thoughts i just dumped on you all.

 

[Dmitri]

If everything you where saying was completely true, Kiro wouldn't be a moderator. If she wasn't, I'd see where you where coming from, but as it stands, I see no conceivable reason why not.

But i'm attempting to move on to the other suggestions I made. I understand we can't make significant changes overnight, and I absolutely understand that. But, I think something needs to be done. So, if you don't see merit in this solution, we can move on to another one.

What you see in public in what we do is only a fraction of the stuff we deal with. Kiro came on board to deal with one of the functions of the public domain, which is approving the tech. There was so much tech that needed approving that it was proving to be too much for one person, and sadly not every admin is tech savvy. Clayton is our tech admin for a reason. But he needed help with that function. So we brought in the ever-brilliant and she-who-should-be-feared Kiro to help Clayton deal with that clutter.

 

[Outlander]

What you see in public in what we do is only a fraction of the stuff we deal with. Kiro came on board to deal with one of the functions of the public domain, which is approving the tech. There was so much tech that needed approving that it was proving to be too much for one person, and sadly not every admin is tech savvy. Clayton is our tech admin for a reason. But he needed help with that function. So we brought in the ever-brilliant and she-who-should-be-feared Kiro to help Clayton deal with that clutter.

Which leads into another suggestion I made earlier: More open admin processes. I'm not saying members should be able to directly comment on everything, but just being able to freely view the proceedings gives us as members a better view on the admins and how they operate.

And, logically, if a moderator can come help @Clayton, why can't a moderator help @GABA GABA HEY or you?

I'd also like to agree with everything @Arclight said.

 

[Dmitri]

So. I normally don't contribute to these things, but i would like to echo @Outlander s point and bring a bit more of specificity to it.

Now i am all for more community moderators. But i am of the opinion that we specifically need one or more battle moderators. Lets face it, with the Manaan rules, more and more threads are having to be ruled on mid thread due to disputes or have to be ended in a ruling due to the 2 week time limit. Now that the Main faction war story is finally kicking into gear, the amount of threads that are going to ruling is... to be honest, somewhat ridiculous. Which brings me to my point.

One of two things needs to happen.

A. Loosen up the Manaan rules a little bit. Not a whole lot, they should still apply in full for main battles, but the expectation of 2-3 weeks of pvp for open mission threads and such when they go to pvp is somewhat overwhelming. It makes participating in such threads seem like even more work than pvp normally does, and i think perpetuates the mentality we have been seeing lately of players going for quick kills in an attempt to win the thread quickly.

B. "Hire" One or more Battle Moderators. I think its pretty easy for everyone to see that @GABA GABA HEY is absolutely swamped with work trying to rule on threads. As i have stated, with the new PvP rules, more and more threads are having to end in rulings. I think that having a few Battle Moderators would help spread the work of making all these rulings around. On top of that, GABA is one of the few Admins who actively RPs and tries to get involved in faction stuff. Not to say that other admins should RP more, because that is entirely up to their individual schedules and the like, but the fact that GABA is the only Admin who really does PvP rulings also prevents her from participating in faction related missions and PvP, due to conflict of interest when rulings have to be made on threads or related threads she is participating in.

Thats all i have for now, sorry for the jumbled mess of thoughts i just dumped on you all.

We can discuss a loosening of Manaan Rules, but I do think they do serve a purpose. I was once told by a member before these rules were put in place that they thought posting windows was not 72 hours, but 3 weeks. If a battle consists of 10 posts, that's about half a year just to finish a single PvP. That's ridiculous.

Another factor behind hiring moderators is if we feel there's a need for them, and if we feel there are people qualified for the job. I do not focus as much on the skills of who's good at PvP and understands it well, so

EDIT: We are not by no means ignoring the points you are bringing up. We are listening. And we will take them into consideration.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

There's definitely room for improvement in some of our processes (one thing that particularly irks me a lot is how long it takes to resolve certain reports). We can consider mods as a potential solution to that.

 

[Green Ranger]

Which leads into another suggestion I made earlier: More open admin processes. I'm not saying members should be able to directly comment on everything, but just being able to freely view the proceedings gives us as members a better view on the admins and how they operate.

Just to quickly comment on this, but realistically this will never happen. Maybe we can look at whether we can communicate the reasoning for our rulings better, but I genuinely see no merit in members being able to watch admins discuss reports or rulings. In fact it would most likely just negatively impact our ability to make rulings at all.

 

[Diva]

Alright. Looks lie the helm has been left open for a moment, so let me just sieze the reigns and mix metaphors.

The prior confusion between @Jessica Cloud and @Outlander actually does well to frame my perspective. I do not care about who is freinds with whom, or anyones ability to just senselessly vent their emotionaly reactive thoughts to any single thing. In my 9 months on the site, and 3 decades as a human, creating a safe space to wring out the sponge of anxiety can FEEL satisfying. Being heard is good for us all, but has absolutely nothing to do with the successful application of policy. Too much "transperancy" and discussion around things that frankly need to be accepted and mvoed on from serves NO ONE. However, SOMEWHERE burried in the purge of collective reactivity are often a few things of value, things that can be addressed in a clear and concrete manner. If any sort of reflective/review thread or forum is to exist, it is imparative that it be established with the understanding that anything but direct thread or rule referencing discussion be adhered to, according the laws of socratian dialogue. This may seem cold, but it also implicitly assumes a certian level of respect and appreciation for the work being done by all involved, especially the admins. So in this spirit, I will now shar a sentimental problem, it's relationship to a tangential problem, and propose a solution.


First, there are the very real issues perpetrated by the community. This are sadly untouchables. Human emotion is simultaneously an extrordinary strength and devastating weakness. We are all very stupid. All of us. Rank, status, activity level, even actual knowledge does not exclude any individual form this magnificent truth. Emotions are terriblely challenging to manage, especially at a certian age. Couple that with the fact that we are all laboring intensively over and sharing in a creative enterprise that, lets face it, is impossible to truly seperate oneself from. Everytime we rp we are placing the fate of something we love in the hands of someone else, and taking a thing they love in our hands. That is the beautiful risk we take, and for better or worse we always must honor it. You are personally responsible for the threads you get yourself into, and how you communicate with those involved. If you do not excersize that responsibility, you

This obviously has the power to bring many of us incredibly close, and if we don't take a moment to breath, tear us apart. Our best route is always to serve the god of story and to mostly accept what is offered to us, tragedy and glory alike. If If you are not willing to take your licks by "yes, and"-ing another player, how can you ever expect the same curteousy?

Now I have a career as a perfermer, so trust me when I say this Frustration is the garunteed consequence of every creative endevour. We have realtime mediums like skype to occasionally vent that frustration, and that is important. I do it ceaslessly, and for the most part it burns out quickly ESPECIALLY as I continue to engage with the people who frustrate me. Not always, but then it is up to me to avoid it. While I have not had much interaction with the Admins, I have seen quite a few lovely snafus since I arrived and this is what I have learned from those:

It is not reality, but a truth that the Admins are aloof. I do not believe this to be deliberate, or a reflection of their actual attitudes towards the other members, but it is a "feeling" that permiates the site, and not without cause. For many of us, the only times we here from or even attempt to communicate with members who are part of the admin team is during times of crisis, or for rulings and the occasional addition of content. This very accidentaly creates the impresion of distance. Tall towers, and serfs. Thus it is easy to throw blame and rail against the "gods" whenever we are unhappy with the decrees that fall to us from their olympian fortress. Hopefully my hyperbole has demonstrated how ludicrous this is, and how such an impression is innacurate; but no amount of explaining it away can truly remedy this fundemental issue, which only renews itself again over time.


Is there a way we can bridge this perception gap? Let's remember what it is that endears the rest of us to one another: the stories. For better or worse, we get a sense of one another through weaving our stories together, meanwhile the admin team, who all came here to do just that, no sacrifice an enormous amount of that pleasure to maintain our ability to do so. I do not have to argue the point that most admins are overworked, and if you can't meet me on that than stop now and go play call of duty. I hypothesize that There is away to allow admins to be more social, and less congested, while also creating more "voices of reason" to absorb and gently diffuse aggitation before it gets out of hand.

The idea proposed for Community Moderators, seems unilaterally like something to be seriously taken into consideration. More low level admins with the basic authority to assist with the rulling load on individual posts and threads, as well as be additional voices of patient reason on the forums, and the various other chat mediums, such as skype and discord. More middle ground moderators like seem like they can only benefit everyone.



This post was constructed over way too much time, and without having seen many of the replies that happened in the meantime, so I am cutting it off here.

 

[Bigfatpenn]

 

[Arcangel]

We can discuss a loosening of Manaan Rules, but I do think they do serve a purpose. I was once told by a member before these rules were put in place that they thought posting windows was not 72 hours, but 3 weeks. If a battle consists of 10 posts, that's about half a year just to finish a single PvP. That's ridiculous.

Another factor behind hiring moderators is if we feel there's a need for them, and if we feel there are people qualified for the job. I do not focus as much on the skills of who's good at PvP and understands it well, so I'll ask you for your honest opinion (and please note that this does not guarantee their consideration, I am asking you, as if you yourself were to select the future battle moderators), who is qualified to be battle moderators? Just like admins, candidates are not chosen by who is interested in the job; we look at who was qualified. There were many people who might be interested in being a tech moderator, but Kiro is the person we felt was best qualified for the position.

Who would you believe best suited to serve as battle moderator?

EDIT: We are not by no means ignoring the points you are bringing up. We are listening. And we will take them into consideration.

Oh i definitely agree that the Manaan rules serve a purpose. I love the time restriction in between posts, as it seriously prevents stagnation in pvp threads to the point where people lose interest and just stop posting. Personally i just think the total thread time limit should either be extended based on number of participants (ex. I was recently in a open thread that was 5v4, I think we maybe got one round of pvp posting before the 2 weeks were up), or just lifted for most thread types other than main battle threads. That way mission threads can run their course and resolve naturally instead of hitting the 2 week wall and ending in a ruling that is most likely a draw.

As for who i think would make good battle moderators, i think the options should be drawn from experienced PvPer's. To name a few off the top of my head, and tbf this list is a bit biased, whether that is because most of the veteren PvPers have went to the Sith, or simply because im not aware of many others who aren't in my current faction. Just a little disclaimer so its not "Oh you only named people from your faction!"

Edit: removed list.

Just to quickly comment on this, but realistically this will never happen. Maybe we can look at whether we can communicate the reasoning for our rulings better, but I genuinely see no merit in members being able to watch admins discuss reports or rulings. In fact it would most likely just negatively impact our ability to make rulings at all.

On this note, i do agree that the ruling process doesn't necessarily need to be transparent. However i do think that the actual handing down of the ruling, as well as the reasoning behind it should be posted on site and made available to all. Too often have rulings been passed down over either Skype or PM's which leads to confusion or frustration over lack of transparency.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

I don't want to have a discussion here about who would make a good mod. That wasn't a good question for us to ask. We don't need to be calling out specific members in that way.

I will note though - no current FL/AFL will become a member of the staff in any form, and that includes mod. We have a rule against serving as staff and faction leadership at the same time.

 

[Arcangel]

I don't want to have a discussion here about who would make a good mod. That wasn't a good question for us to ask. We don't need to be calling out specific members in that way.

I will note though - no current FL/AFL will become a member of the staff in any form, and that includes mod. We have a rule against serving as staff and faction leadership at the same time.

Of course. I removed the list of names as to not call out anyone.

Yes i understand that. Was more of just throwing out the names that came to mind off the top of my head. Often times the people in the FL and AFL positions end up being some of the better PvPer's on the site. Not exclusively, but often.

 

[Dmitri]

Oh i definitely agree that the Manaan rules serve a purpose. I love the time restriction in between posts, as it seriously prevents stagnation in pvp threads to the point where people lose interest and just stop posting. Personally i just think the total thread time limit should either be extended based on number of participants (ex. I was recently in a open thread that was 5v4, I think we maybe got one round of pvp posting before the 2 weeks were up), or just lifted for most thread types other than main battle threads. That way mission threads can run their course and resolve naturally instead of hitting the 2 week wall and ending in a ruling that is most likely a draw.

I agree that the time frames need to be edited. Recently we expanded that 2v2 would have 3 weeks rather than 2, and we can work on furthering that system. Honestly I tend to favor people doing more 1v1, because it's less hectic and you're able to do things more productively and faster. Heck, the original Manaan Rules, the ones me and the Fifth Timeline FLs made during the Battle of Manaan were designed around 1v1 specifically.

 

[Bee]

I still don't understand why admins should be expected to PvP or participate in faction stories. What separates an admin from anyone else ICly?

 

[Bigfatpenn]

I still don't understand why admins should be expected to PvP or participate in faction stories. What separates an admin from anyone else ICly?

To intise players? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Arcangel]

I still don't understand why admins should be expected to PvP or participate in faction stories. What separates an admin from anyone else ICly?

I personally don't have that expectation. It's just nice to see. I think everyone should be able to create stories and enjoy RP, so it is kinda a bummer to me that the Admins don't have the time to participate in the site that they run.

 

[Jessica Cloud]

I still don't understand why admins should be expected to PvP or participate in faction stories. What separates an admin from anyone else ICly?

1. At this time admins are expected to enjoy participating in the RP in any way they would like to. However, it has recently been suggested that increased participation in general RP by the admins will increase moral.
2. Nothing.

 

[Bee]

I'm not gonna be anyone's RP mascot to boost morale/entice them to participate. That seems like a pretty hefty weight to put on the shoulders of anyone, let alone the ones who keep the site running.

 

[Jabonicus]

The issue I see with the Admins not RPing is that it feels like they just aren't involved in the Story, and as such, lack an understanding of this Timelines RP systems and issues, as they do not experience them.