Walking as a woman in NYC

[Gaja]

Gaja, go watch the movie Frankenhooker.

Don't ask questions, just go do it.

At first I thought you were joking, and that there's no way someone actually made a movie like, and named, that. [Unless of course it's porn]

6 seconds after googling it I just shook my head and smiled. Of course someone made it...

Anyway to not derail the thread any further, I'm out. And Bac is sexist.

 

[Kaeb]

goodnight sweet prince

 

[jpchewy01]

Emma Watson's speech is problematic for a lot of reasons and might not be the best thing to bring up with regards to feminist inroads with men. Alternatively, I'd like to point out that many feminist spaces have opened up a men's arm to specifically deal with issues faced by male allies regarding masculinity and other issues. Specifically, on my campus (which isn't exactly the most liberal campus in the world), we have a wonderful group called "Men Care" that basically exists to organise with the other feminist groups on campus as well as address specific men's issues. So, yes, feminism is a wonderful space for men as well. However, as men, we should be aware of our privilege and know our place in feminist spaces.

On a related note, the amount of mansplaining in this thread is also problematic. As men, we shouldn't be dictating what "real" feminism is, it's not our movement. Also, it humours me that there is a legitimate discussion about man-hating feminazis on tumblr going on right now because, unlike crazy MRAs, the small (AND I MEAN SMALL) minority of crazy-ass feminists does not have the systematic agency to actually hurt anybody. I'd also like to bring one of Kaeb's points back into the discussion: much of the criticism of feminism being "man-hating" or of any other such similar ideological bent is based on a fundamental misunderstanding of not only the ideology of feminism but also of the true definition of equality. Equality means relinquishing privilege and this is a very hard thing to come to terms with sometimes.

 

[Sovereign]

Men's rights activists belong to a hate group. They don't have anything to add to the discussion. Also, radical feminism is great.

 

[Brandon Rhea]

On a related note, the amount of mansplaining in this thread is also problematic. As men, we shouldn't be dictating what "real" feminism is, it's not our movement.

Yes and no. I totally agree with you from the sense of men trying to take power over it in that way, and therefore hijacking it and making women subservient within it, but to say that it's "not our movement" is basically the same thing you said to me and Jared about discussing racism on Facebook.

Inequality affects everyone. Inequality of the sexes may not have much of an affect on men as individuals, but we still have sisters, mothers, girlfriends, wives, and friends. To say it's "not our movement" when we should all be feminists is just wrong, and it suggests that we should get out of the way and shut up. I don't think that's what you're saying, but I think your words are painting with too broad of a brush.

So no, we should not be dictating how people should think, but equality is everyone's movement.

 

[Liam]

One time I had a Tumblr feminist tell me to kill myself because I made a post about beards, and they proceeded to tell me how it is unfair to talk about them because FTM Trans have difficulty growing them, and I should be more cautious of triggering material, when I wasn't aware I even had any transgendered followers.

Truthfully, I love feminism. I'm all for equal rights, if a woman is capable of doing the same job as me, she deserves the same pay (Granted my pay isn't desirable in the first place.) Catcalling and the likes is wrong though. Just at certain times for me, there is a line that gets blurred for me between legitimate issues and whining about nothing. The main reason why I just feel uncomfortable identifying as a feminist is partially because that overtly hostile minority which seems to get all the attention. I hate how Tumblr and the internet age has evolved feminism to some degree and in my opinion, negatively in some areas. Often times, I see people who claim to have egalitarian views, but then not hesitate to denounce an entire group purely based on their gender. People often forget when they debate (including online), that you should be trying to convince the other that their opinion isn't the same as yours, but instead people often rather just find it easier to attack their person.

But every group of anything has that one minority which gives a bad name to some degree. Muslims have Al-Qaeda, Christians have Westboro Baptist, and Whites have skinheads.

tl;dr I like feminism. I don't like 'kill all the white men' feminism.

Well said. Especially the last bit about the minorities who give things bad names.

 

[Endling vas Precious]

I see your points, and concede my (unwillingly) narrow perspective. Like I said, a LOT of issues that I've come to see after living in the city are new to me, and still try to understand. Just want to pick out this little section.



I know not of what it's like to be catcalled day in and day out, but I know what it's like to be called an ugly **** day in and day out since I was but a wee lad. I grew up feeling my body was much more important than I was as a person by perceived friends and a couple family members, much less from society. It is definitely damaging in many ways. That, along with a few other finer details in my life has left me to suffer from being bi-polar depressant, and not a day goes by that I don't think about putting a bullet in my head because of the psychological damage I've been left with. But I tread on, with faith that the world will get better.

But do people want to **** you when they catcall you? Do you feel threatened, sexually, when someone catcalls you? Do you fear for your life? Do you think 'today is the day I'm going to be viciously sexually assaulted' when you walk out to your car after work? Do you make your hand into a fist with your car keys jutting out between your fingers? Do you have to smile awkwardly and nod when you receive an unwanted compliment in public for fear of being called a 'bitch' or '****'? Can you go shopping without a creepy old man asking you if the body wash you have in your hand smells good, and then feel grossly uncomfortable as he follows you around the store? Can you drive down a street without being wolf whistled by a construction worker (who then begins to slap the ground with his shovel as you make eye contact through the rear view mirror)?

Guess what, I have depression. I have PTSD. I have seasonal affective disorder. I'm a survivor of sexual assault. But those things don't define my life. I manage them well.

Do you know what I have no control over? Men (and some women, I have a creepy female stalker who works at the bank my work does the daily deposits at, but that's a different story) that feel I owe them something: but let me make this clear.

Women owe you nothing.

Not a smile, not a glance, not a hello, not attention, not conversation.

I will not reduce myself to a puddle because some guy thinks he's a cruise ship. I'm the goddamn ocean, motherbitch, I command fear and respect. (Fun fact for the women folk on here, pretend you are very important, a CEO, a model, a business women who's about to miss her flight to Hong Kong, exude this. I've had a lot less people harassing me when I have this 'you dare look at me, peasant, my power suit cost more than you'll make in a life time' demeanor!)

I'm not sure where I went with this post it's late and I just got home from a ten hour shift ah well

 

[Bee]

I thought the bank stuff was our little secret. :(

I don't know where your post was supposed to go, but 10/10 would read again.

 

[Endling vas Precious]

I thought the bank stuff was our little secret. :(

I don't know where your post was supposed to go, but 10/10 would read again.

TIL Bee moonlights as a RBC bank teller.

That's why you're wicket is the only one available when I do the weekend deposit! You just want more time with me!

2sneaky4me

 

[jpchewy01]

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/10/29/catcalling_video_hollaback_s_look_at_street_harassment_in_nyc_edited_out.html

Great article with some further reading.

 

[Derath Quinton]

But do people want to **** you when they catcall you? Do you feel threatened, sexually, when someone catcalls you? Do you fear for your life? Do you think 'today is the day I'm going to be viciously sexually assaulted' when you walk out to your car after work? Do you make your hand into a fist with your car keys jutting out between your fingers? Do you have to smile awkwardly and nod when you receive an unwanted compliment in public for fear of being called a 'bitch' or '****'? Can you go shopping without a creepy old man asking you if the body wash you have in your hand smells good, and then feel grossly uncomfortable as he follows you around the store? Can you drive down a street without being wolf whistled by a construction worker (who then begins to slap the ground with his shovel as you make eye contact through the rear view mirror)?

Guess what, I have depression. I have PTSD. I have seasonal affective disorder. I'm a survivor of sexual assault. But those things don't define my life. I manage them well.

Do you know what I have no control over? Men (and some women, I have a creepy female stalker who works at the bank my work does the daily deposits at, but that's a different story) that feel I owe them something: but let me make this clear.

Women owe you nothing.

Not a smile, not a glance, not a hello, not attention, not conversation.

I will not reduce myself to a puddle because some guy thinks he's a cruise ship. I'm the goddamn ocean, motherbitch, I command fear and respect. (Fun fact for the women folk on here, pretend you are very important, a CEO, a model, a business women who's about to miss her flight to Hong Kong, exude this. I've had a lot less people harassing me when I have this 'you dare look at me, peasant, my power suit cost more than you'll make in a life time' demeanor!)

I'm not sure where I went with this post it's late and I just got home from a ten hour shift ah well

I already conceded to everyone's points, but no one commands respect from me, male or female. I never once said women owed me anything. I never once said I wanted to **** any girl I catcalled (which was exclusively a loud "OW", then back to my business). I also never said I call any of them bitches or the like because I got a middle finger.

I carry a knife with me wherever I go. It's not a lot, but it's something in case shit goes down until I can legally open carry. My friends open carry all the time. It may not be for sexual assault alone, but for any ****ing shit that goes down. That's the kind of world we live in sister, and while anybody can go bitch at a courthouse, they should still prepare for the worse.

Every day I wonder if I'll make it through the night. My past constantly gets shoved in my face with no way to stop it. On top of that, I'm expected to be able to take it all, because I'm a man. I'm expected to be the strongest, most agile, most witty and charismatic guy, or I'm not man enough. I'm expected to have the biggest dick, or I'm not man enough to please the woman of my dreams. I'm expected to be drafted for war, whether I'm ready for it or not, while women are not. I'm expected to raise a child when I'm not ready for it, or pay child support for the rest of my life while at the same time a woman has the choice at abortion if she doesn't want to be a mother when I want to be a father. I'm expected to be able to take on any dangerous role in life without complaint. I'm supposed to be this rock in society that almost never breaks, but I'm swimming in mud day in and day out. I can't find work after injuring myself on my previous job, in which I've received no medical support for. But that's my privilege. I've gone days without food. But that's my privilege. I don't have anybody I can trust to open up to with what I'm feeling without fear of rejection and getting knocked down, and so I dig myself a deeper whole into my depression. But that's my privilege. I could very well end up on the streets, because of my injury preventing me of paying off my debts, and die without anyone knowing. But that's my privilege.

And do you know where all that comes from? Not men, I'll tell you that.

 

[Oncaro]

Guys, can we all just stop now? I've been reading through this thread and held off on posting, but this seems to be getting kinda personal and that's a fine line to walk when hot-button issues like this get pressed.

 

[Johnnysaurus Rex]

Guys, can we all just stop now? I've been reading through this thread and held off on posting, but this seems to be getting kinda personal and that's a fine line to walk when hot-button issues like this get pressed.

I have to ultimately disagree. I wrote this post agreeing with you initially until I took the topic into consideration, but I believe this is honestly a thread that Sovereign (SIN) posted in the wrong section.

An admin should move this thread to Current Events where said strong opinions can come out under and umbrella the site has historically supported.


EDIT: I will probably not post wholeheartedly until done so.

 

[Oncaro]

I have to ultimately disagree. I wrote this post agreeing with you initially until I took the topic into consideration, but I believe this is honestly a thread that Sovereign (SIN) posted in the wrong section.

an admin should move this thread to Current Events where said strong opinions can come out under and umbrella the site has historically supported.

Perhaps I should have reworded; I meant to try to take a step back from the more personal and inflammatory remarks and anecdotes that can so easily come about in such discussion. Discussing the issue is fine, but I just see this as going to devolve into a "Who's Life Sucks More"-fest and that just doesn't do anything but bring up bad feelings and potential bitterness.

 

[Johnnysaurus Rex]

Perhaps I should have reworded; I meant to try to take a step back from the more personal and inflammatory remarks and anecdotes that can so easily come about in such discussion. Discussing the issue is fine, but I just see this as going to devolve into a "Who's Life Sucks More"-fest and that just doesn't do anything but bring up bad feelings and potential bitterness.

I agree on the terms of "woe is me" as an argument is ultimately anecdotal and non-representative as an issue as a whole, but since this is a forum where personal experience has a place where it can properly be conversed I still prefer moving the topic.

EDIT: on top of being a place where said issues of scale can be safely and more emotionally discussed. Again, the Current Affairs board.

again, should things cool down for a Genereal discussion topic? Probably. Can the discussion be more fitted to another more appropriate board? Absolutely.

 

[Endling vas Precious]

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/10/29/catcalling_video_hollaback_s_look_at_street_harassment_in_nyc_edited_out.html

Great article with some further reading.

Oh woah, I never noticed the race thing until it was pointed out in that article. When I watched the video for the first time it didn't really cross my mind that most of the people harassing her were Latino or black. Whilst the video was definitely a good visualization of daily harassment for women, I'm left wondering why the video wasn't diverse in the people it represented. Where my creepy white dudes at.

@Derath: I didn't bother to read what your response was to my post. I found your previous post (the one I replied to) to be too much of a 'pity me these things happened'. I'm sorry if that's blunt or crass of me to say, and I am sorry you are going through those things, but the topic at hand is about harassment based on Rape culture, which I don't believe is an issue you actively face in your day to day life, hence my rhetoric.

There is a difference between sexual harassment and the harassment you described, and whilst the outcome(s) have similar repercussions, your issue is a microcosm compared to the much larger scope of what women (and some men) have to endure.

I'm going to agree with Johnny (for once), I think this is a good current affairs thread.

 

[jpchewy01]

[video]http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/8aeb78deb2/10-hours-of-walking-in-nyc-as-a-man[/video]

 

[Kaeb]

I already conceded to everyone's points, but no one commands respect from me, male or female. I never once said women owed me anything. I never once said I wanted to **** any girl I catcalled (which was exclusively a loud "OW", then back to my business). I also never said I call any of them bitches or the like because I got a middle finger.

I carry a knife with me wherever I go. It's not a lot, but it's something in case shit goes down until I can legally open carry. My friends open carry all the time. It may not be for sexual assault alone, but for any ****ing shit that goes down. That's the kind of world we live in sister, and while anybody can go bitch at a courthouse, they should still prepare for the worse.

Every day I wonder if I'll make it through the night. My past constantly gets shoved in my face with no way to stop it. On top of that, I'm expected to be able to take it all, because I'm a man. I'm expected to be the strongest, most agile, most witty and charismatic guy, or I'm not man enough. I'm expected to have the biggest dick, or I'm not man enough to please the woman of my dreams. I'm expected to be drafted for war, whether I'm ready for it or not, while women are not. I'm expected to raise a child when I'm not ready for it, or pay child support for the rest of my life while at the same time a woman has the choice at abortion if she doesn't want to be a mother when I want to be a father. I'm expected to be able to take on any dangerous role in life without complaint. I'm supposed to be this rock in society that almost never breaks, but I'm swimming in mud day in and day out. I can't find work after injuring myself on my previous job, in which I've received no medical support for. But that's my privilege. I've gone days without food. But that's my privilege. I don't have anybody I can trust to open up to with what I'm feeling without fear of rejection and getting knocked down, and so I dig myself a deeper whole into my depression. But that's my privilege. I could very well end up on the streets, because of my injury preventing me of paying off my debts, and die without anyone knowing. But that's my privilege.

And do you know where all that comes from? Not men, I'll tell you that.

If you really feel this perturbed and ''oppressed'' by societal norms, than if anything you should be more sympathetic to the social, political and economic conditions endured by women in our culture every day, not less so.

 

[Ser Gregor]

Oh woah, I never noticed the race thing until it was pointed out in that article. When I watched the video for the first time it didn't really cross my mind that most of the people harassing her were Latino or black. Whilst the video was definitely a good visualization of daily harassment for women, I'm left wondering why the video wasn't diverse in the people it represented. Where my creepy white dudes at.

That goes back to what I said earlier in this thread; race and poverty. The two aspects are intimately connected to each other and create a negative feedback loop of 'machismo' and misogyny that celebrates base behaviour as masculine and denigrates what is considered 'feminine' behaviour (ie. talking it out, sharing your feelings with others, and other aspects that create healthy positive relationships between people). Latino and blacks aren't more 'base', but they're unfortunately far more prone to grow up in a racially heated, poor environment.

On the flip-side, however, there are the 'whitelites' who have gotten by in life on the coattails of family success, and this too often promotes a similar negative feedback loop. They view everything as something they can claim, because that's how they've been raised. These kinds of people aren't as prevalent on the streets of NYC, though. You find these kinds of men, disturbingly, in business and politics.

 

[Cainhurst Crow]

So is it safe to say hello/good morning/afternoon to people when I walk, or is that considered immoral now and I should just keep my eyes on my phone screen where they belong and can't objectify anyone?